Nehor just quibbles to quibble. Obviously Mormons are blessed for the effect their missionary work has. We were repeatedly told as missionaries that if, due to our neglect, we didn't convert someone that could have been converted, and could have gone on to convert others, ALL those lost conversions would be on our heads.
John A. Widtsoe provides insight to an earth-life responsibility made in that premortal world which is of great importance. He highlights a contractual agreement we made concerning the eternal welfare of all of the sons and daughters of the Eternal Father:
“In our preexistent state, in the day of the great council, we made a[n] … agreement with the Almighty. The Lord proposed a plan. … We accepted it. Since the plan is intended for all men, we became parties to the salvation of every person under that plan. We agreed, right then and there, to be not only saviors for ourselves but … saviors for the whole human family. We went into a partnership with the Lord. The working out of the plan became then not merely the Father’s work, and the Savior’s work, but also our work. The least of us, the humblest, is in partnership with the Almighty in achieving the purpose of the eternal plan of salvation.”
Elder Widtsoe continues:
“That places us in a very responsible attitude towards the human race. By that doctrine, with the Lord at the head, we become saviors on Mount Zion, all committed to the great plan of offering salvation to the untold numbers of spirits. To do this is the Lord’s self-imposed duty, this great labor his highest glory. Likewise, it is man’s duty, self-imposed, his pleasure and joy, his labor, and ultimately his glory.” (“The Worth of Souls,” The Utah Genealogical and Historical Magazine, Oct. 1934, p. 189.)
Sethbag wrote:I don't know about you, but I've heard many testimonies of people talking about folks they'd baptized years ago, and how the kids of these converts had gone on on missions of their own, and rejoicing about endless generations of Mormons generated by their initial conversion. You haven't?
Are you quibbling with me over whether Mormon scripture promises happiness from one's entire downline, rather than just the first tier of it?
I've enjoyed it and it's made me happy but I don't think that emotional reward is like an MLM. As for benefits to my exaltation, I'm pretty sure that scripture says it's my thoughts, my words, and my actions I'll be judged by.
Getting judged for the effects you can't control would be horrible. What if my next hike leads to the disruption of a few butterflies whose physical movement contributes to a hurricane that kills thousands a decade later? I hope I'm not judged for that.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
There is no question in my view as to why MLMs work so well with Mormons. They use the same emotion based epistemology (method of "knowing") as Mormonism. If it makes me feel good, it must be "true". The MLM guys know how to dress and present themselves authoritatively. It helps if you have a university degree or two as well. But the key is to deliver the emotional goods. The use of testimonials works beautifully, which I note is illegal in some US states regarding financial planning precisely because of the distorting effect it has on decision making.
Question: Does our love of MLMs make us any more sympathetic of Joseph Smith money digging? Question: Does our mode of F&TM make us more vulnerable to MLMs? (i.e. doubting not allowed in public, etc.)?
MLMs work very well with Evangelicals as well, and conservative republicans!
How do I know?
Well I will confess I did Amway for about 5 years (early 90s). I was fairly successful with it too. The up line we were tied to were solid EVs. The conferences felt like Church meetings at times, or a conservative political rally. On the Sunday after a weekend conference there was an "optional" church service that had EV music, EV preachers and always there was an alter call.
beastie wrote:Nehor just quibbles to quibble. Obviously Mormons are blessed for the effect their missionary work has. We were repeatedly told as missionaries that if, due to our neglect, we didn't convert someone that could have been converted, and could have gone on to convert others, ALL those lost conversions would be on our heads.
I'm a quibbler. No, it's not obvious. I have never heard that taught outside District and Zone Leaders speaking outside of the words of prophets and scripture to try to motivate missionaries.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
I'm a quibbler. No, it's not obvious. I have never heard that taught outside District and Zone Leaders speaking outside of the words of prophets and scripture to try to motivate missionaries.
It is obvious, at least we agree on something.
So you admit you've heard it taught on your mission. Guess it was just one more lie they told us. Guess that also means Elder Widtsoe bought the lie.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
I'm a quibbler. No, it's not obvious. I have never heard that taught outside District and Zone Leaders speaking outside of the words of prophets and scripture to try to motivate missionaries.
It is obvious, at least we agree on something.
So you admit you've heard it taught on your mission. Guess it was just one more lie they told us. Guess that also means Elder Widtsoe bought the lie.
I heard it taught by 19 and 20 year olds trying to 'motivate' me, yes. I don't call that teaching nor did I take everything out of the mouths of other missionaries as doctrine. I heard all kinds of craziness taught on my Mission. I taught some of it. I didn't take it seriously unless it concurs with scripture. In what venue did Elder Widtsoe supposedly teach this? Have any of the other Brethren taught it? Did you get a spiritual witness that it was accurate?
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
The Nehor wrote:I've enjoyed it and it's made me happy but I don't think that emotional reward is like an MLM. As for benefits to my exaltation, I'm pretty sure that scripture says it's my thoughts, my words, and my actions I'll be judged by.
But how great your joy will be in God's Kingdom (if you are exalted) will depend on your Butterfly Effect, per the LDS scripture quoted by Sethbag:
D&C 18:15,16 " 15 And if it so be that you should labor all your days in crying repentance unto this people, and bring, save it be one soul unto me, how great shall be your joy with him in the kingdom of my Father! 16 And now, if your joy will be great with one soul that you have brought unto me into the kingdom of my Father, how great will be your joy if you should bring many souls unto me!"
One thing well worth pointing out is that those at the top understand the numbers game.
The upline knows MLM and Mormonism gets 80% of their revenue from the uneducated, lower class, superstitious and gullible. When those on the bottom discover the ruse, they feel a sense of betrayal that effects their ability to trust and believe what is good.
Jason Bourne wrote:Well I will confess I did Amway for about 5 years (early 90s).
This reminds me of an amusing experience I had. I was in Anaheim for a key club conference and I was such a goody two shoes Mormon that I wanted to attend the local ward. I missed the call of the guy who was suppose to give me a ride because I was in the shower so I ended up wandering around Anaheim that Sunday until i came across a guy looking at cars. I mentioned my situation and he offered to give me a ride (I would have had to cross a freeway to get to the chapel). Before we left he started mentioning amway and asked me if i had ever heard of it and i said, "Yeah, that's the train." To which he replied, "No, that's amtrak." Later on I was telling the story to someone else and he said, "That was the right response to his question."
And yes, I did get to the ward and was driven back to the hotel by an Indian Mormon couple. (Indians from India, not "Lamanites.")
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei
(I lost access to my Milesius account, so I had to retrieve this one from the mothballs.)