Question for Gaz...

[_Yoda]

This is in response to a post Gaz made on Kevin's thread. I think it basically deserves its own topic:

The average age of marriage in those days was 14, and the sealing of Joseph to others was done in order that he could lay claim on them in the world to come, his calling and election having already been made sure.

The statement you made regarding the average age of marriage being 14 is false. I have addressed this in other threads on polygamy before. I tried to do a search, and can't find the exact study I referred to, but there is plenty of documentation that supports this as a falsehood.

Marriage at 14 was an exception to the rule. The average marital age of women in the United States in the 19th Century was 21.

Take a look at the reference here:

http://www.wisegeek.com/how-has-the-ave ... r-time.htm

Even Jane Austen, writing in the early 19th century had heroines married at the earliest age of 17 or 18. In Laura Ingalls Wilder’s books, which are semi-autobiographical, her father would not allow her to marry until she was 18. Thus it can be said that the average woman was past 21 when entering her first marriage, 100 years ago.

In other cultures, age at marriage may be slightly lower. For example, in Mexico the mean age of marriage currently is 23.3 years for men and 18.4 years for women. This has increased as well, reflecting Mexico’s increasing industrialization.

Also, during the 1800’s the average age to begin menstruation was seventeen.

Women and girls today start puberty at a much younger age than they did then.

Here is one quick reference I was able to find:

http://www.clementsclinic.com/dr-todd-c ... od-obesity

[_Yoda]

This was posted for Gaz's benefit, but anyone else who has comments is welcome to post.

[_Ray A]

Liz, wasn't the "virgin" Mary suposed to have been about 12-14 years old when she was "conceived with child"?

[_Polygamy-Porter]

Does Gazelam believe that Smith had sex with his teen brides?

I know many mo'pologigsts deny smith had sex with ANY of his brides.

Or that they weren't marriages, just sealings.

[_harmony]

This is in response to a post Gazelam made on Kevin's thread. I think it basically deserves its own topic:

The average age of marriage in those days was 14, and the sealing of Joseph to others was done in order that he could lay claim on them in the world to come, his calling and election having already been made sure.

The statement you made regarding the average age of marriage being 14 is false. I have addressed this in other threads on polygamy before. I tried to do a search, and can't find the exact study I referred to, but there is plenty of documentation that supports this as a falsehood.

Marriage at 14 was an exception to the rule. The average marital age of women in the United States in the 19th Century was 21.

Take a look at the reference here:

http://www.wisegeek.com/how-has-the-ave ... r-time.htm

Even Jane Austen, writing in the early 19th century had heroines married at the earliest age of 17 or 18. In Laura Ingalls Wilder’s books, which are semi-autobiographical, her father would not allow her to marry until she was 18. Thus it can be said that the average woman was past 21 when entering her first marriage, 100 years ago.

In other cultures, age at marriage may be slightly lower. For example, in Mexico the mean age of marriage currently is 23.3 years for men and 18.4 years for women. This has increased as well, reflecting Mexico’s increasing industrialization.

Also, during the 1800’s the average age to begin menstruation was seventeen.

Women and girls today start puberty at a much younger age than they did then.

Here is one quick reference I was able to find:

http://www.clementsclinic.com/dr-todd-c ... od-obesity

Quit confusing him with facts, Liz.

And I want to know how Joseph could have his calling and election made sure, when he couldn't even document the restoration of the higher priesthood.

[_Ray A]

And I want to know how Joseph could have his calling and election made sure, when he couldn't even document the restoration of the higher priesthood.

He did. May, or June, 1828, or 1829.

Gee, does nothing satisify you?

[_Yoda]

Does Gazelam believe that Smith had sex with his teen brides?

I know many mo'pologigsts deny smith had sex with ANY of his brides.

Or that they weren't marriages, just sealings.

I don't think that Gaz has a problem with Joseph having sex with his wives, because he feels that they were his wives, given to him by God...just like the prophets of old.

BC has stated that he doesn't necessarily believe that Joseph had sex with them. However, my understanding there, is that even though he doesn't think that Joseph had sex with them, he wouldn't have a problem if Joseph did.

[_Yoda]

Liz, wasn't the "virgin" Mary suposed to have been about 12-14 years old when she was "conceived with child"?

I don't know that there is any historical record stating Mary's age when she was pregnant with Jesus. Does anyone know?

by the way...this brings me to another question for Gaz....When you stated that 14 was an average marital age....I assumed that you were speaking of women in the 1800's. Is that what you meant? Or were you referring to 14 being the average marital age in biblical times? Since you were discussing Joseph and his inquiry regarding the law of plural marriage, I assessed that you were referring to the 19th century time frame.

There is a HUGE misconception regarding female development and marital age during that time frame among LDS members. I had always assumed that it was customary for women to marry at age 14 based on what I was taught in Church. It wasn't until I did some further reading on female menarche that I discovered the drastic error in what was being taught.

Based on malnutrition and other factors, females actually developed much later than they do today. a 12-14 year old girl in the 1800's would typically look like an 7-9 year old girl today from a puberty standpoint.

[_Ray A]

Based on malnutrition and other factors, females actually developed much later than they do today. a 12-14 year old girl in the 1800's would typically look like an 7-9 year old girl today from a puberty standpoint.

So "if" Mary was about 12-14, that would equate her to about what? Three of four?

[_Gazelam]

I think this information is relevent since the culture of the church was very much british due to the heavy influx of converts.

Hardwick's Marriage Act 1753

Hardwick's Marriage Act applied only to England & Wales and came into force in 1754. Scotland and the Channel Islands were exempt from the legislation.
Under the terms of the Act, a separate book had to be kept for recording marriages. All marriages had to be concluded during the hours of daylight, so as to be "an open ceremony"
Before the Act the marriage records did not show the bride and groom's address, age, parents' names or details of any witnesses.

Entries in the new marriage book introduced by Hardwick's Act show the date of the event, the names of the bride and groom, their married status (bachelor, spinster, widow or widower etc), whether the ceremony was by banns or licence, the name of the vicar or curate, the signature or mark of the couple and the names of the two witnesses. In the mid 19th century, 31% of men and 45% of women signed with a mark rather than a signature.

Under Hardwick's Act, Banns were made compulsory. Licences were only valid for a specific church. Marriage by licence of a minor without parental consent was null and void, although it still happened. From 1823 onwards Banns had to be read in both the bride and groom's parish where they were different. Addresses of residence in the marriage entry are rare before the early 1800s, and where shown can be misleading. Often one address for both parties was given so as to avoid the need to pay for two lots of Banns - i.e. one in the groom's parish, and one in the bride's.

The Act also declared that only marriages held at approved places (i.e. Anglican, Jewish or Quaker churches) were legal. This was a big change as previously couples who made a vow before witnesses, who lived together and who had children were recognised by the church and law as being 'married'.

From 1754, all children born to couples married at non-approved places (such as 'marriage shops' or non-conformist chapels), were declared as 'base'. They were unable to inherit from their parents whose property reverted to the crown after their death. The Act declared this provision as retrospective.

In order to legalise their marriage, some couples married again in an Anglican church, having first married in a non-conformist chapel. Marriages by other denominations, (i.e. Roman Catholic and Non-Conformist) weren't legalised until the 1830s.

The Act fixed the lower legal age of marriage as 14 for men and 12 for women. This was raised to 16 for both sexes in 1929, although parental consent was still required for brides or bridegrooms under age 21. In 1969, the minimum age for marriage without parental consent was lowered to 18 years of age.

As Hardwick's Act did not apply to Scotland, marriages in Gretna Green, the nearest Scottish town from the English border, were a regular occurrence for people under the age of 21, until 1939 when Scottish law was changed to mirror English law.

Source