Two Cumorahs

[_beastie]

Is this fair?

Critic's perception, scholars drive the church's belief's -no revelation.

Believer's perception, education evolves even within a revelatory institution

I think that’s fair, although with the qualifier that the education is either proceeding without the benefit of revelation, or that the revelation is so murky and ambiguous that the receivers can’t quite identify the answer. Some of this doesn’t really seem to be evolving as much as contradicting past positions.

[_mikwut]

Beastie,

But as education evolves doesn't contradiction necessarily follow? Einstein/Newton?

regards, mikwut

[_beastie]

In a sense I think the debate is pretty much at this stage already, although many people do not recognize it or care to admit it. Certain people are highly invested in the ancient Mesoamerican hypothesis and will emphasize the payoff of going this route as much as they can and as literally as they can, but even in this case there is nothing to necessitate a very close correlation of the text as it exists and history as it unfolded in the fine details. Indeed, it cannot, since the apologists are talking about a subgroup in a Mesoamerican context that is sharing its past in a highly literary fashion that does not correspond well with our usual modern Western assumptions about history.

You may be right. I have to think about it some more in the context of past debates I’ve had with Mesoamerican apologists. One possible stickler could be how an ancient American in 400 AD or thereabouts would know how to add details from the future, as in visualizing a more complex society and the problems and challenges that creates (like an underclass). It would have had to be quite a visionary ancient American. Are there examples of that in other texts? I know there are examples where writers insert anachronisms in past texts, but do authors writing in the past sometimes insert future anachronisms? Or, to use your example, could we expect Homer to insert anachronisms from the nineteenth century? Of course, apologists could still attempt to use translation artifacts with that, but whether or not that can be successfully applied depends a great deal on the context.

Dale

However, in that case, they would at least be back in step with what they
affirm to be the immutable Holy Word of God Almighty in the Standard Works.

(Not that such an accord means anything to hopelessly twisted minds) –

Well, it all depends on what you expect from the text, as Trevor has explained. Apologist are already on the path of insisting that this isn’t a type of literal history that we would expect from history books. The Nephites were creating an epic, which results in lots of exaggerations and even flat-out erroneous assertions. And it is true that this is not unheard of in ancient texts, so I will defend them on that point, although I’m hardly schooled in that arena like others are. I guess it’s just to what extent people feel comfortable applying this epic inflation that differs. Where does one draw the line, as Trevor mused? I’m betting lots of LDS silently (or openly in select venues) think that a good portion of the Old Testament is myth, for example, and yet still feel comfortable viewing it as the Holy Word of God.

[_Trevor]

Well, from the historical side of things, maybe your timeline for the Book of Mormon is wrong!!!!

I would be interested to know what your timeline for Book of Mormon events is.

[_Uncle Dale]

...The Nephites were creating an epic, which results in lots of exaggerations and
even flat-out erroneous assertions.
...

Daily Universe Reporter: "I'm so happy to meet you at last; may I ask a question?"
NMI Doctorate: "Certainly -- We're all doing the Lord's work here."

DUR: "There's this new book by Bro. Meldrum, and..."
Doc: "Can I interest you in this much more reliable work by Dr. Sorenson?"

DUR: "Ah, er -- what I meant to ask, was about the Nephite tower in Missouri."
Doc: "Some called it an altar: at Adam-ondi-Ahmen? I can't answer hypotheticals."

DUR: "But, if Joseph Smith could find Nephite artifacts in Missouri..."
Doc: "Oh come on now! Next thing you'll be asking is about Zelph's bones!"

DUR: "It WAS Joseph Smith, after all..."
Doc: "And he was creating an epic, which results in lots of exaggerations."

DUR: "Oh! my!!"
Doc: "Yes -- and even flat-out erroneous assertions."

DUR: "I feel faint..."
Doc: "Don't worry -- reading a few Book of Mormon chapters will help."

DUR: "OK..."
Doc: "But remember: The Nephites were creating an epic, which results..."

DUR: "Now I really need to lie down!!!"
Doc: "Don't worry -- reading some Joseph Smith history will help."

(fade to black)

UD

[_Trevor]

You may be right. I have to think about it some more in the context of past debates I’ve had with Mesoamerican apologists. One possible stickler could be how an ancient American in 400 AD or thereabouts would know how to add details from the future, as in visualizing a more complex society and the problems and challenges that creates (like an underclass). It would have had to be quite a visionary ancient American. Are there examples of that in other texts? I know there are examples where writers insert anachronisms in past texts, but do authors writing in the past sometimes insert future anachronisms? Or, to use your example, could we expect Homer to insert anachronisms from the nineteenth century? Of course, apologists could still attempt to use translation artifacts with that, but whether or not that can be successfully applied depends a great deal on the context.

Mesoamerican apologists? Now who's the prophet?

Just kidding.

Is it impossible in ancient Mesoamerica around 400 CE for someone to have constructed their own romance based on things they saw around them, whether of present or past civilizations?

And then you always can chalk up other problems to the translator!

[_beastie]

Mesoamerican apologists? Now who's the prophet?

Just kidding.

Is it impossible in ancient Mesoamerica around 400 CE for someone to have constructed their own romance based on things they saw around them, whether of present or past civilizations?

And then you always can chalk up other problems to the translator!

Well, then, you’re right, just chuck two Cumorahs. It could just as well be a visionary in the Moundbuilder culture in NY as in Mesoamerica.

Maybe we can think of him as the ancient Dungeon Master in his mother’s basement.

[_beastie]

Daily Universe Reporter: "I'm so happy to meet you at last; may I ask a question?"
NMI Doctorate: "Certainly -- We're all doing the Lord's work here."

DUR: "There's this new book by Bro. Meldrum, and..."
Doc: "Can I interest you in this much more reliable work by Dr. Sorenson?"

DUR: "Ah, er -- what I meant to ask, was about the Nephite tower in Missouri."
Doc: "Some called it an altar: at Adam-ondi-Ahmen? I can't answer hypotheticals."

DUR: "But, if Joseph Smith could find Nephite artifacts in Missouri..."
Doc: "Oh come on now! Next thing you'll be asking is about Zelph's bones!"

DUR: "It WAS Joseph Smith, after all..."
Doc: "And he was creating an epic, which results in lots of exaggerations."

DUR: "Oh! my!!"
Doc: "Yes -- and even flat-out erroneous assertions."

DUR: "I feel faint..."
Doc: "Don't worry -- reading a few Book of Mormon chapters will help."

DUR: "OK..."
Doc: "But remember: The Nephites were creating an epic, which results..."

DUR: "Now I really need to lie down!!!"
Doc: "Don't worry -- reading some Joseph Smith history will help."

(fade to black)

Yeah, well, I suspect some of the current crop of Mormons will have to die off because this gets much traction...

[_beastie]

But as education evolves doesn't contradiction necessarily follow? Einstein/Newton?

Unless you're willing to invoke multiple universes, I'm not sure how you can work this out.

[_Dr. Shades]

But as education evolves doesn't contradiction necessarily follow? Einstein/Newton?

Not if God is at the helm.