Did Scott Gordon Meet with the "Oaks Faction"?

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_Droopy
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Re: Did Scott Gordon Meet with the "Oaks Faction"?

Post by _Droopy »

Let me re-state what was plainly written in English to understand:

"... that by quoting Nietzche's "In Beyond Good and Evil" you create a perfectly ironic moment since that book itself is an attack on philosophers who lack the philosophical critical sense vis a vis their acceptance of Christian premises ...".

You quote a book that attacks Christian morality in order to attack the lack of Christian morality. I understand the quote was simply used to support your position. What I find ironic is in order to support Mormon apostolic natterings you quote an atheist anti-Christian existentialist. That is why you are viewed as someone who contorts yourself mentally in order to make convoluted and muddled points.



You quote a book that attacks Christian morality in order to attack the lack of Christian morality.


Genealogy of Morals attacks Christian "slave" morality to delegitimize Christian, and all other forms of traditional morality entirely. He wanted to support and increase an alternate, and inverse anti-Christian morality, not decry the lack of it.

What I find ironic is in order to support Mormon apostolic natterings you quote an atheist anti-Christian existentialist.


Nietzsche was a nihilist, a relativist, (the initial step toward nihilism), and really represents the birth of what has become known as "post-modernism".

All Nietzsche was stating in the quote I used was a general observation of the human condition vis-a-vis music and its emotional/psychological effects.

But keep this up Doctor, you're apparently on a roll here.
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_Ray A

Re: Did Scott Gordon Meet with the "Oaks Faction"?

Post by _Ray A »

Doctor Scratch wrote:Wow! Now they have closed down two threads which were devoted to the fact that Scott Gordon met with the leader of the "Oaks Faction." Incredible! You would think that people who were so certain of their position(s) would be a lot less fearful and paranoid in terms of letting the conversation develop organically.


I presume you noted that it was closed at the request of Scott Lloyd, even though the thread was started by DCP.

Maybe Scott just got tired of seeing the words "folk Mormons".


When the going gets tough, just shout "derailment! derailment! derailment!". (Which is how I initially got censored.)



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_Doctor Scratch
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Re: Did Scott Gordon Meet with the "Oaks Faction"?

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

No, Ray---I didn't notice that. I have suspected for some time now that Scott Lloyd is a moderator, though.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_Ray A

Re: Did Scott Gordon Meet with the "Oaks Faction"?

Post by _Ray A »

Doctor Scratch wrote: I have suspected for some time now that Scott Lloyd is a moderator, though.


It wouldn't in the least surprise me, but my 2-1 bet is on Pahoran being a mod. The "derailment!" tactic of the MAD mods is just too familiar to me.
_beastie
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Re: Did Scott Gordon Meet with the "Oaks Faction"?

Post by _beastie »

LOL, I didn't realize it had been closed.

Well, at least now Nemesis doesn't have to answer my direct question about whether or not any mod admitting to banning me from viewing the thread. I wanted to know if he would actually lie about it. His previous statement about it had some wiggle room. I wanted to pin him down.
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_Gadianton
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Re: Did Scott Gordon Meet with the "Oaks Faction"?

Post by _Gadianton »

Doctor Scratch wrote:No, Ray---I didn't notice that. I have suspected for some time now that Scott Lloyd is a moderator, though.


Good point, he likely requested it to be closed, waited a few minutes, and then logged in as a mod and closed it.
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_Ray A

Re: Did Scott Gordon Meet with the "Oaks Faction"?

Post by _Ray A »

I’m resurrecting this thread because I don’t feel like starting a new one. I’d like to comment, generally, on the possibility that there are Oaks and Packer factions within the Church, and though I’m sure this has been raised before, I think it’s worth revisiting.

I was aware of this kind of “talk” among members going a long way back, when many were suggesting that Apostolic succession be abandoned, and that the Church should appoint its “youngest and brightest”, not based on seniority. Besides, too many aging presidents were left as cripples while their younger counselors, or assistant presidents (if we go back to McKay), were left to run the Church anyway. Oaks and Maxwell were the prime contenders (and both eventually strongly supportive of MI-type apologetics), at least in the minds of those speculating, when the demise of Spencer W. Kimball occurred.

I’ll use as simple a source as Wiki to highlight the very possibility of these “factions”:

Boyd K. Packer and To Young Men Only
Quinn has pointed to Apostle Boyd K. Packer's LDS General Conference address from October 1976 as evidence of problematic attitudes in the LDS Church towards homosexuals. In the speech, Packer encourages teenage boys to avoid immoral activities, which he says includes viewing pornography, masturbating, participating in homosexual behavior, and participating in heterosexual behavior outside of marriage. Packer encourages young Latter-day Saints to "vigorously resist" any males "who entice young men to join them in these immoral acts." Packer cites the example of a male missionary he had known who punched his missionary companion for making romantic advances. Packer says he told the missionary, "Well, thanks. Somebody had to do it, and it wouldn't be well for a General Authority to solve the problem that way."After telling the story, Packer comments, "I am not recommending that course to you, but I am not omitting it. You must protect yourself." Packer offers a similar warning against heterosexual advances, but without the threat of violence in return: "Never let anyone handle you or touch those very personal parts of your body which are an essential link in the ongoing of creation"[122]
Quinn has argued that the obliqueness of these vague comments constitute an endorsement of gay bashing by Packer, and that the church itself endorses such behavior by continuing to publish Packer's speech in pamphlet form. However, in 1995, Apostle Dallin H. Oaks said, "Our doctrines obviously condemn those who engage in so-called 'gay bashing'—(defined as) physical or verbal attacks on persons thought to be involved in homosexual or lesbian behavior."


(Emphasis added)

I think anyone can see the difference in approaches here, with Packer almost condoning violence as a means of self-protection, and Oaks adamantly opposed to “gay-bashing”.

I doubt that “spiritual eyes ” Packer would at all be concerned about Meldrum’s apologetics, and may even himself believe it! But the more “scholarly” Oaks, and the late Maxwell, took, for want of a better word, the “academic” approach, trying to combine reason with faith.

Do I think that Doctor Scratch’s informants are just fictional, wild-eyed, or even devious misinformants? Well, if they are, they have reconstructed these scenarios with an accuracy that many of the “old timers” remember very well.

The truth is sometimes stranger than fiction.
_Ray A

Re: Did Scott Gordon Meet with the "Oaks Faction"?

Post by _Ray A »

I should also add that I have absolutely no idea as to where Monson stands in this. That's "intel" that Scratch's informant/s are probably more "up to date" on than I am. I don't know. I do think that Monson would be more likely to side with Packer in determining the future direction of the Church.

I think this will come down to two options - Meldrum or FAIR.
_Doctor Scratch
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Re: Did Scott Gordon Meet with the "Oaks Faction"?

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Ray A wrote:I should also add that I have absolutely no idea as to where Monson stands in this. That's "intel" that Scratch's informant/s are probably more "up to date" on than I am. I don't know. I do think that Monson would be more likely to side with Packer in determining the future direction of the Church.

I think this will come down to two options - Meldrum or FAIR.


Hi, Ray. Thanks for bumping this old---but, I believe, important---thread. Let me say (as I've said many, many times already) that I myself am skeptical about what I've been told by these "informants."

That said, I was told by one of the more reliable "tipsters" that Monson sides with the so-called "Packer Faction." In the end, all of the Brethren are doing what they think will be best for the Church. And Pres. Monson apparently thinks that a more orthodox approach (ala Meldrum) will do more to keep TBS satiated, and to help attract new members to the Church.

I know that Dr. Peterson believes that FARMS-style apologetics and "Mormon Scholars Testify" are "missionary efforts" in some way, but I find it very hard to follow his logic in that regard. I've long thought that the apologetics he represents are one of the worst things the Church has ever produced.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_Ray A

Re: Did Scott Gordon Meet with the "Oaks Faction"?

Post by _Ray A »

Doctor Scratch wrote:I know that Dr. Peterson believes that FARMS-style apologetics and "Mormon Scholars Testify" are "missionary efforts" in some way, but I find it very hard to follow his logic in that regard. I've long thought that the apologetics he represents are one of the worst things the Church has ever produced.


I wouldn't be so quick to give credibility to Johnny Lingo or Marie Osmond. :)

The way I see it, is that if these "factions" do exist (and I think, given precedents, that it's entirely possible, and wouldn't be the first schism to occur in higher echelon circles), the battle is for the future of how Mormonism shall approach, to quote Roberts, "these difficulties", and the stark realisation that "the academic approach", or the "rational approach", could be an unmitigated disaster for the Church. Packer will be thinking and saying things like, "Let's not go there!" And I'll momentarily wax conspiratorial and suggest that LDS Newsroom editorials like The Mormon Ethic of Civility, were not written with the view that Mormons can win “intellectual wars”, and debates about evidence for Nephites, and Limited Geography Models, etc., which seem to reply too heavily on “reasoning”, and not enough on “spiritual witnesses”, or the “spiritual witness”. The “Packer Faction” may well realise that to go down that path will spell ultimate doom for the Church.
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