MADness - banned - folk versus orthodox Mormon

[_Ray A]

We have all staked out our own territory and get put into different categories, but there is a lot of unseen complexity in all of this.

With which I agree. I don't think anyone can boil down "truth", or "untruth" to a single equation (excepting obvious absurdities). Whether one is a Muslim, a Mormon, a Catholic, a Hindu, I think there are some "core" fundamentals that cannot be flippantly dismissed. It may well go back to Joseph Campbell's idea of "the hero with a thousand faces", and how mythology plays an important role in the human psyche. I think, If I recall correctly, it was Albert Camus who said that he was impressed with the power of mythology in human psychology, and Carl Jung, if you care to look up his bio, performed rituals to make his mind feel more at peace (which any "rational" person would find weird). Rituals totally foreign to Mormonism, but which nevertheless made him feel more at peace. So ritual may have some significance, albeit not one that comes within the domain of "empirical science".

I think humans are far more complex than something that can be "empirically" analysed in a laboratory.

[_beastie]

Each "side" of the conversation has its own agenda and is playing this out according to its own script. What you actually intended or did does not matter. How you would feel or why you would do something also does not matter. What matters to them is how your words and actions can be made to fit their script.

Mind you, I think critics do exactly the same kind of thing. We seize on the things apologists say and then use them to push our own particular agenda. Because of this communication at cross purposes, there really is a limit to what can be accomplished in the exchange. And, those apologists or critics who accord too much respect and understanding to the other side, like consiglieri, on the one hand, or maybe me, on the other, run the risk of being distrusted and tagged as turncoats.

Yes, I think that is an astute observation. It often feels like we’re just asked to play a role, be a warm body in the drama – lines will be provided, no need to think up your own. And no doubt each side does it.

Part of what fascinates – and troubles – me about this little world is that it is like a microcosm of human nature… and boy we are strange.

I concur with Ray, by the way. I don’t view you as a turncoat at all. I enjoy your perspective.

[Guest]

It may well go back to Joseph Campbell's idea of "the hero with a thousand faces", and how mythology plays an important role in the human psyche. I think, If I recall correctly, it was Albert Camus who said that he was impressed with the power of mythology in human psychology, and Carl Jung, if you care to look up his bio, performed rituals to make his mind feel more at peace (which any "rational" person would find weird). Rituals totally foreign to Mormonism, but which nevertheless made him feel more at peace. So ritual may have some significance, albeit not one that comes within the domain of "empirical science".

I think humans are far more complex than something that can be "empirically" analysed in a laboratory.

I agree, Ray. But maybe that is one of my defensive mechanisms as a Humanities professor.

I used to be down on Jung because he was not scientific. Same with Freud. I have more appreciation for Jung these days, for the reasons you cite really. I ordered his Red Book for Christmas, but I have yet to see it. I hope we can pursue this topic further in the future, because I find it very interesting.

[_Trevor]

Part of what fascinates – and troubles – me about this little world is that it is like a microcosm of human nature… and boy we are strange.

I concur with Ray, by the way. I don’t view you as a turncoat at all. I enjoy your perspective.

Ain't that the truth. We are strange. And, thanks for showing me this appreciation. It means a lot to me.

[_Ray A]

I agree, Ray. But maybe that is one of my defensive mechanisms as a Humanities professor.

I used to be down on Jung because he was not scientific. Same with Freud. I have more appreciation of Jung these days, for the reasons you cite really. I ordered his Red Book for Christmas, but I have yet to see it. I hope we can pursue this topic further in the future, because I find it very interesting.

I'll be very happy to look at this topic some more, Trevor. I think if you go back 2,000 years or more, you'll find that the Greek philosophers speculated on subjects now considered somewhat "taboo" in our society (not that I'm lecturing you, since you'd know more about this than I do), but while they (correctly) speculated on the existence of an atomic world, few take their other speculations seriously.

I plan for my next blog post to be on Giordano Bruno (haven't got around to it yet), who was burnt at the stake as a "martyr of science", yet I'm sure that "science" still does not take some of his other metaphysical speculations as seriously, which, in my opinion, may yet turn out to have some substance.

[_Trevor]

I'll be very happy to look at this topic some more, Trevor. I think if you go back 2,000 years or more, you'll find that the Greek philosophers speculated on subjects now considered somewhat "taboo" in our society (not that I'm lecturing you, since you'd know more about this than I do), but while they (correctly) speculated on the existence of an atomic world, few take their other speculations seriously.

If you find what the Pre-Socratics were up to worth looking at, you might be interested in reading Peter Kingsley's books In the Dark Places of Wisdom and the pretentiously titled, but nonetheless fascinating, Reality. Peter Kingsley is a Classicist who became a kind of mystic. He can be out there, but it is a fun read all the same.

I plan for my next blog post to be on Giordano Bruno (haven't got around to it yet), who was burnt at the stake as a "martyr of science", yet I'm sure that "science" still does not take some of his other metaphysical speculations as seriously, which, in my opinion, may yet turn out to have some substance.

Well, I need to read that when you post it. He is one of those names I keep intending to follow up on, but never seem to get around to.