So does this make Will the ideal Mormon from the critics point of view? Seems to me that being internally consistent with our past foibles is an even greater foible by itself.
I guess that all depends upon what you mean by “ideal.”
By ideal, I mean someone who is willing to take upon themselves words and deeds which were inherently wrong (such as lying for the Lord by omission or commission) and easily refutable. Most take on the good only and downplay the bad.
I do think Will understands the implications of the history of the church
Others understand the implications of the good and the bad, but are not willing to chain themselves to the bad.
Will is more comfortable with the God that Mormonism points towards, and that may have to do with the personality traits we see him display on this board.
Past defects of Church leaders are not the same as the God any of us worship. Will's personality traits are his own.
Past defects of Church leaders are not the same as the God any of us worship. Will's personality traits are his own.
I’m not talking about the defects of past church leaders. I’m talking about how LDS leaders and even scripture has presented its idea of “God”. God lies to his followers for their own good (see the spin about eternal punishment). God tells his followers to commit unnecessary murder (see Nephi and Laban). God cared more about Joseph Smith getting more wives than anything else (see God sending an angel with a sword for one thing and one thing only).
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
If one really wants to see open, brazen, bombastic lying, deception, and guile, one only has to spend some fair amount of time here to understand the meaning of that concept, and the meaning and near definition of anti-Mormonism.
Of course the nuance argument and meaning Will is looking at here is, as usual, well beyond the heads of most denizens of the Trailerboard.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us
- President Ezra Taft Benson
I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.
Droopy wrote:If one really wants to see open, brazen, bombastic lying, deception, and guile, one only has to spend some fair amount of time here to understand the meaning of that concept, and the meaning and near definition of anti-Mormonism.
Of course the nuance argument and meaning Will is looking at here is, as usual, well beyond the heads of most denizens of the Trailerboard.
Loran, you are awesome. I wonder if my wife would accept the "nuance argument" if I said, "I really wanted to tell you about the 32 other women I've been sleeping with, but, you know, God told me not to. And who am I to question the Lord?"
It doesn't have to be bombastic to be brazen deception.
Droopy wrote:If one really wants to see open, brazen, bombastic lying, deception, and guile, one only has to spend some fair amount of time here to understand the meaning of that concept, and the meaning and near definition of anti-Mormonism.
Of course the nuance argument and meaning Will is looking at here is, as usual, well beyond the heads of most denizens of the Trailerboard.
Now I am curious. Can you give us a few links to "open, brazen, bombastic lying, deception, and guile" by anti-Mormons on this board?
Unfortunately, Will is following in the tradition of Joseph Smith here. Joseph told Sidney Gilbert to use his store to smuggle the Gospel onto the Indian reservation. Joseph told the Mormons in Missouri to pretend they were going to sell their land, even though they in fact had no intention of doing so. Joseph and his top leaders in Nauvoo lied about polygamy, even to the point of canonizing one such denial. Joseph wrote the Book of Abraham, wherein God tells Abraham to tell Sarah to lie to Pharaoh. Joseph wrote D&C 19, which not only reveals that God has used deceptive language about Hell to reinforce his moral teachings, but also commands Martin Harris to keep this knowledge from the general public. The truth is that one who wants for Gospel precedents to justify deception will find them amply provided in the life of Joseph Smith.
CaliforniaKid wrote:Unfortunately, Will is following in the tradition of Joseph Smith here. Joseph told Sidney Gilbert to use his store to smuggle the Gospel onto the Indian reservation. Joseph told the Mormons in Missouri to pretend they were going to sell their land, even though they in fact had no intention of doing so. Joseph and his top leaders in Nauvoo lied about polygamy, even to the point of canonizing one such denial. Joseph wrote the Book of Abraham, wherein God tells Abraham to tell Sarah to lie to Pharaoh. Joseph wrote D&C 19, which not only reveals that God has used deceptive language about Hell to reinforce his moral teachings, but also commands Martin Harris to keep this knowledge from the general public. The truth is that one who wants for Gospel precedents to justify deception will find them amply provided in the life of Joseph Smith.
Here we see the genius of Joseph Smith. He created a system in which nothing is absolute, nothing inherently right or wrong, so that whatever he did, he just attributed it to God, and his followers would approve of it. That nearly 200 years later people are still justifying in Joseph Smith what they would find reprehensible in others speaks to the man's talent.
Many of the MADites constantly chastise "anti" sites for their lies, 1/2 truths and taking things out of context. While I will gladly admit that some of the more extreme anti sites do that, I have seen FAR more of this on the apologist side than I ever have on the anti side. There is so much word play and denial based on the razors edge of plausibility.
If there's one thing I've learned from this board, it's that consensual sex with multiple partners is okay unless God commands it. - Abman
I find this place to be hostile toward all brands of stupidity. That's why I like it. - Some Schmo