I hope it is okay if I post exactly the same question I post over at MA&D. Is that okay with people? I like to compare notes. On a different thread I was stating that I didn't see the doctrine of becoming a god as being useful to the human race. An argument was made against me (from a guy I admire) as stated below:
I think the concept of eternal progression, and a literal Father-God that is an exalted human is HUGE. A monumental and breathtaking concept, an elegantly powerful fusion of theism and humanism. To me, this concept is nothing less than the greatest religious doctrine ever revealed.
Please can you folks be so kind as to explain to me why you think this is good (or not) for the human race to believe in?
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)
I like the Eastern Orthodox concept better because instead of focusing on us maintaining our independence from God (as being procreating gods with some kingdom of our own), the EO view is that theosis results in us becoming one with God. Put simply, God became human that humans might become god is a shorthand way of describing the purpose of Jesus Christ on Earth. This was taught by the patristic fathers long before Joseph Smith taught it. I like this notion because of its symmetry between God and us. I also like the emphasis on achieving this union with God through grace, and that the next life is a radical departure from this one where we experience the ultimate reality of Being. I think that is much more appealing than, "And that same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there" (D&C 130:2). However, I suspect most Mormons would not see it this way.
Aristotle Smith wrote:...becoming one with God. ...
Exactly.
And such a spiritual path has nothing to do with "eternal progression" in priesthood powers, personally-induced perfection, and endless procreation with celestial plural wives, to build vast cosmic kingdoms.
The Orthodox tradition is also found (less succinctly articulated) in Roman Catholicism -- especially in the Franciscan and Carmelite traditions.
zeezrom wrote:Please can you folks be so kind as to explain to me why you think this is good (or not) for the human race to believe in?
I think the more pertinent question is whether it is real or not. Choosing beliefs by what is useful is not a good way to select them.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
The Nehor wrote:I think the more pertinent question is whether it is real or not. Choosing beliefs by what is useful is not a good way to select them.
Point well taken. I got the same response over there:
Because that is what God the Father and Jesus want for us.
But still, I have a hunch most members believe the theory to be desirable. I want to know the reasons why they consider it desirable - "what is so great about it?"
How does it help you as a person? as a spouse, as a parent, as a friend, etc. Does it motivate you? Does it help you try to improve yourself... that kind of thing.
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)
zeezrom wrote:But still, I have a hunch most members believe the theory to be desirable. I want to know the reasons why they consider it desirable - "what is so great about it?"
"It's good to be the king."
How does it help you as a person?
Gods are the only true people; we are just shadows of one.
as a spouse,
Imagine finally understanding your spouse absolutely and completely being understood. No pretense, no worrying. When you can feel their love comforting you at all times......wow.
as a parent,
They won't try the "I didn't do it" line as much when you're omniscient.
as a friend,
Perfect people make good friends.
Does it motivate you?
I have no idea how their motivations work beyond love. I look forward to finding out.
Does it help you try to improve yourself... that kind of thing.
That's mistaking the journey for the destination. Gods don't need improvement. They experience all, know all, and enjoy all. Trying to perpetually advance without ever arriving seems good because we have come to enjoy the journey too much and not look forward where they should to the far-off lands of eternal bliss.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
I find the idea that home sapiens will die, then their bodies (after having been used by billions of other organisms and creatures), will somehow come back together to reside on a planet where they can become Gods and Goddesses really difficult to accept, actually impossible to believe. It just really makes no sense with our modern understanding of the universe and existence. I mean it may have worked two thousand years ago but, seriously, this just doesn't work.
But lets say it was true... why in the world would I want to become a Goddess, as is described in LDS teachings? What, become a wife in some harem, procreate spirits for eternity, have 1/3 of my children be cast off into outer darkness (not a chance), then allow my children to be a part of some cruel plan where most will live in suffering, pain, and sorrow? Are you just kidding me?
As I have stated many times, the LDS version of the afterlife is my idea of HELL.
Another point... I think those who like the idea of becoming Gods have some sort of need for power and control and domination, (smile). The whole "blessings of Abraham" speak to men who want power, possessions, glory (women, land, posterity,etc).
in my opinion, the true journey to enlightenment is about releasing these ego needs as we live from a place where we no longer care about glory and reward but see us as one; one with each other and one with God (or in my own view, being the pantheist/nature religionist that I am, one with Source).
The carrot of becoming a God, in my opinion feeds the ego... it promotes that which in my opinion, we want to release and overcome.
~td~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
truth dancer wrote:As I have stated many times, the LDS version of the afterlife is my idea of HELL.
I agree... the LDS version of heaven is put into finite terms humans can understand, and it sucks. I tell you what the real answer is z, you have to be infinite to even come close to understanding what the other dimension is like, and we are finite, so it's moot. To even think one can become a God is based upon selfish greed... I doubt that's how it works.
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. 2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths
I agree with what you say truthdancer. My response adds to that. I think the important "test" is if there is no "god status" coming to ya in the hereafter, would a person still strive to be good and seek to be righteous in a world of carnal temptations. Because that would be a true test of a person's genuine goodness. Which would bring them closer to "Godhood" by allowing themself to do good merely for goodness sake.
If you think it would be lousy to become a god, think about how lousy it would be a goddess.
Bleah!
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.