Truth Dancer and The Spirit

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_mfbukowski
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Re: Truth Dancer and The Spirit

Post by _mfbukowski »

Analytics wrote:I find these comments self-contradictory. You first say that the "best" path with the most "truth" is an individual thing, but then say that the Mormon Church is the real best path with the most real truth. Can you really have it both ways?

Or do I misunderstand you? Do you conceed that maybe, for example, Budhism could be the path with the most "real" truth, but that the relatively inferior path of Mormonism happens to work for you because of some peculiar idiosyncrasy of yours?

I think the claim that Mormonism has the most truth irks exMormons in the same way that exMormons claiming they outgrew Mormonism irks Mormons. It comes across as patronizing.

"Real truth"? As opposed to "fake truth"? Where did I say that??

Well I think you have a rather philosophically naïve view of "truth". You seem to think there is somehow one view of reality which is beyond human experience to verify- ie "real truth".

I think the only truth available is "what works"- and that is true for science and for morality as well. We have scientific theories which "work" until another comes along which works better- but which is really "true"? It depends doesn't it. I mean is Pluto a planet or not? Yes or no? Which is "true"? Is string theory true or not? Yes or no? The answer to these scientific questions right now in history is "It depends".

At this moment, I don't have time to go into all the details, but I think that Mormonism is the most life-affirming path to "what works" for society and all humans I have seen.

To make it simple, let me say that my favorite philosophers are John Dewey, William James, AN Whitehead, and Wittgenstein - those who I would call Pragmatists or loosely, "social constructionists". I believe that "reality" is socially constructed. Hopefully that communicates quickly where I am coming from, if it doesn't it doesn't.

I didn't mean to be patronizing, but I am not responsible for the emotional reactions of others, just myself.

Regarding Nightlion-
I suspect he is a provocateur sockpuppet troll.
Pay no attention to the man behind that curtain.
_mfbukowski
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Re: Truth Dancer and The Spirit

Post by _mfbukowski »

Nightlion wrote:Before you lay hold of the Spirit of God you must seek to enter in at the straight gate and repent in the depths of humility and take upon you the name of Jesus Christ with a broken heart and contrite spirit making a covenant to suffer all things for his names sake and wait, wait for the visitation of power that falls upon the children of God. Then you will know the Spirit. Before that you do not know the Lord.

How is it then possible for a non-member to ever convert if the cannot know the Spirit?

This is not doctrine, and worse, it is not true.
_mfbukowski
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Re: Truth Dancer and The Spirit

Post by _mfbukowski »

zeezrom wrote:Your idea of a path that works is subjective.

First it is not my idea, and second, please describe a path which does not work which is "objective" which appears to be what you are looking for.
_Nightlion
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Re: Truth Dancer and The Spirit

Post by _Nightlion »

mfbukowski wrote:
Regarding Nightlion-
I suspect he is a provocateur sockpuppet troll.
Pay no attention to the man behind that curtain.


Nightlion is James Q. Muir fourfold witnessed a prophet of God among the LDS since 1970 by elders in good standing. Two stake presidents witnessed that I indeed had the gift and power of God. The first after disciplining me for bringing forth a NEW Mormon THEOLOGY and the second one cast me out of the church the next day. I was rejected because my testimony of the REAL gospel is true. You cannot say a word against it so you dismiss me and smear me and speak all manner of evil against me because you are the child of the devil who flatters you and makes you cry over his purposes.
The Apocalrock Manifesto and Wonders of Eternity: New Mormon Theology
https://www.docdroid.net/KDt8RNP/the-apocalrock-manifesto.pdf
https://www.docdroid.net/IEJ3KJh/wonders-of-eternity-2009.pdf
My YouTube videos:HERE
_Nightlion
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Re: Truth Dancer and The Spirit

Post by _Nightlion »

mfbukowski wrote:
Nightlion wrote:Before you lay hold of the Spirit of God you must seek to enter in at the straight gate and repent in the depths of humility and take upon you the name of Jesus Christ with a broken heart and contrite spirit making a covenant to suffer all things for his names sake and wait, wait for the visitation of power that falls upon the children of God. Then you will know the Spirit. Before that you do not know the Lord.

How is it then possible for a non-member to ever convert if the cannot know the Spirit?

This is not doctrine, and worse, it is not true.

Ah the arrogance of this unbelieving generation. There is a difference between knowing the Lord and competently able to discern what is of God and what is not and being drawn to come unto Christ and repent and follow the spirit of truth.

The spirit of truth which testifies of truth is not the same as the certain knowledge of God which comes after one is born again by the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost.

You were talking about KNOWING and not about responding to the enticements of God leading people to the truth. But having said that. EVERY missionary of the LDS Church today incompetently strives to convert people by manipulation of emotions rather than bringing them to repent in the depths of humility and take the name of Christ with full purpose of heart so that they are visited of God and wrought upon and cleansed by the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost which is the only gospel found in all scripture. Why is that?
The Apocalrock Manifesto and Wonders of Eternity: New Mormon Theology
https://www.docdroid.net/KDt8RNP/the-apocalrock-manifesto.pdf
https://www.docdroid.net/IEJ3KJh/wonders-of-eternity-2009.pdf
My YouTube videos:HERE
_zeezrom
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Re: Truth Dancer and The Spirit

Post by _zeezrom »

mfbukowski wrote:
zeezrom wrote:Your idea of a path that works is subjective.

First it is not my idea, and second, please describe a path which does not work which is "objective" which appears to be what you are looking for.


I'm not suggesting there is a single, known path. Are you?
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

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_Analytics
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Re: Truth Dancer and The Spirit

Post by _Analytics »

mfbukowski wrote:"Real truth"? As opposed to "fake truth"? Where did I say that??

Well I think you have a rather philosophically naïve view of "truth". You seem to think there is somehow one view of reality which is beyond human experience to verify- ie "real truth".

I'm not talking about what I think. I'm just trying to understand your paradoxical thoughts on the matter. Is it that different things work for different people depending upon their unique life, or is it that while some things work somewhat for some people, Mormonism is the real deal that would work best for everybody?

Putting a different spin on it, there is a multi-culturalism feel to the idea that different things are "true" to different people, and what is true (or what works) is something that is different for different people yet is still essentially valid.

That seems to contradict the "Mormonism-exceptionalism" feel of statements such as "Mormonism is the most life-affirming path to "what works" for society and all humans I have seen."

In other words, you seem to be saying that various paths "work" for different people, but the path of Mormonism would be better for all of them.

By the way, when you talk about "Mormonism", are you talking about the real-world religion as lived by real people, or are you talking about some Platonic ideal of the "real" Mormonism that somehow eludes many of the religion's adherents? The reason I ask is because it should be indisputable that life in the real church doesn't work for a lot of people you've met, and I think you're incredibly naïve if you think it does.
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.

-Yuval Noah Harari
_mfbukowski
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Re: Truth Dancer and The Spirit

Post by _mfbukowski »

Over on MADB, Kevin Christensen just made a great post which I think is totally relevant to this discussion:

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/topic/ ... 1208821678

See Post 306

For another reader exercise, consider where AntiCitizen might fit on the Perry Scheme of Cognitive and Ethical Growth.

His depiction of the LDS seems to me to assume that we are all at level 1, or 2 at best. For the record, I don't think so. Some are perhaps, but human nature being what it is, we all have to start somewhere. But where is he? How does he measure up, based on what he says and does here? What do you think? Position 2 seems to fit, based on what I have seen so far.


PERRY SCHEME OF COGNITIVE AND ETHICAL GROWTH TABLE OF TRAITS BY POSITION AND TRANSITION
POSITION 1 - Basic Duality. (Garden of Eden Position: All will be well.)
The person perceives meaning divided into two realms-Good/Bad, Right/wrong, We/They, Success/Failure, etc. They believe that knowledge and goodness are quantitative, that there are absolute answers for every problem and authorities know them and will teach them to those who will work hard and memorize them. Agency is "Out there". The person is so embedded here that there is no place from which to observe themselves, yet they have a dim sense of there being a boundary to Otherness somewhere that gives their Eden-like world view boundary.

Transition 1-2 - Dualism modified. (Snake whispers.) The person starts to be aware of others and of differing opinions, even among authorities. This started the feeling of uncertainty. But they decide it is part of the authority's job to pose problems. It takes hard work to deny the legitimacy of diversity and to keep the belief in the simplicity of truth.

(It should be kept in mind that in any of the transition states it is easy for the person to become depressed. It takes time for the "guts to catch up with leaps of mind." When a sense of loss is accorded the honor of acknowledgement, movement is more rapid and the risk of getting stuck in apathy, alienation, or depression is reduced. When one steps into new perceptions he is unlikely to take another until he comes to terms with the losses attendant on the first.)

POSITION 2 - Multiplicity Prelegitimate. (Resisting snake)

Now the person moves to accept that there is diversity, but they still think there are TRUE authorities who are right, that the others are confused by complexities or are just frauds. They think they are with the true authorities and are right while all others are wrong. They accept that their good authorities present problems so they can learn to reach right answers independently.

TRANSITION: 2-3 - Dualism modified

Now the person admits that good authorities can admit to not knowing all the answers yet, but they will teach what they know now and teach the rest when they have it. They accept that disciplines are divided into the definite and the vague, but that in the end even science fails. Though they have given up dividing meaning into just two realms, they still feel knowledge and goodness are quantitative and that agency is "out there".

POSITION 3 - Multiplicity Legitimate but Subordinate. (Snake's logic considered)

The person still feels that the nature of things naturally produces differing opinions, but it's as it should be, because the Authorities will figure it all out and hand on their conclusions eventually.

ALL OF THE POSITIONS ABOVE FEEL ABANDONMENT IN UNSTRUCTURED LEARNING ENVIRONMENTS. WHEN CHANGES IN THINKING START TO HAPPEN, IT CAN BE A DANGEROUS TIME. (The forbidden fruit has been partaken and one is out of the Garden of Eden.)

There are seven ways a person can go.

Transition 1. The person can make the transition by modifying dualism drastically to where one no longer trusts authority to have any answers, and they think it will be a long, long time before they will; therefore, there is really no way to be judged by them. Bitterness sets in, as it seems as if rewards don't come by hard work and rightness, but by good expression and arbitrary factors. With an inability to distinguish between abstract thought and "bull", disillusion settles and blinds the person to where they become dangerously cynical and take advantage of any opportunity to get gain.

Transition 2. The person could decide that, if there are so many different answers a depending on individual perspective, that it is impossible for any true judgment; therefore anything goes. All is of equal value. To have an opinion makes it right.

Transition 3. Same as above, except it dawns that there are some facts that, if known, can make for a better choice among the many.

Transition 4. Anger and frustration win out. Instead of becoming cynical and opportunistic, person acts out negatively.

Transition 5. The person is moving closer to accepting relativity. He trusts authorities to have valid grounds for evaluations. To get along, one needs to accept that authorities are using reasonable information in making their answers. So the person tries to discover what it is authorities think and want.

Transition 6. Person realizes that on some matters, reasonable people reasonably disagree, that knowledge is qualitative and is context-dependent. They begin weighing factors and approaches in ways that force comparison of patterns of thought, they think about thinking and this occupies the foreground. But they still tend to want to conform so much that they have trouble thinking independently.

Transition 7. This position between multiplicity and relativity is now closer to relativity. The person sees that thinking relatively isn't just what the authorities he has been dealing have reasoned out and want him to accept, it is the way the world works, in most cases.

NOW UNCERTAINTIES OR DIVERSITIES MULTIPLY UNTIL THEY TIP THE BALANCE AGAINST CERTAINTY AND HOMOGENEITY, PRECIPITATING A CRISIS THAT FORCES THE CONSTRUCTION OF A NEW VISION OF THE WORLD, BE IT ONE MARKED BY CYNICISM, ANXIETY, OR A NEW SENSE OF FREEDOM.

POSITION 5 Relativism discovered.

The person accepts that all thinking is relative for everyone and are much taken with this new perspective. It could be a time of profound anxiety as the person struggles to understand how to make right choices. They decide they can and must do something about this new world view, but they may spend a long time before sensing a need for commitment. They can take responsibility for a task at hand, but don't yet realize they have a responsibility to choose commitments.

THIS POSITION COULD MAKE FOR A PERSON WHOSE AGENCY FOR MAKING SENSE HAS VANISHED ENTIRELY. THEY COULD ALSO REACT BY POSTPONING DECISIONS, FALLING INTO APATHY OR GOING INTO A RAGE. IT COULD GET SO BAD IT COULD APPEAR THE PERSON NEEDS CLINICAL HELP. THE POTENTIAL FOR CYNICISM COULD BECOME EQUALLY ALARMING EDUCATIONALLY.

If the person RETREATS, rage takes over and he loses agency to make sense. He survives by avoiding complexity and ambivalence and regresses to Dualism, position 2, (multiplicity prelegitimate). He becomes moralistic righteous and has "righteous" hatred for otherness. He complains childlike and demands of authority figures to just tell him what they want.

If the person at this point doesn't retreat, he may go into a state of TEMPORIZING. His agency for making sense has vanished, but he postpones any movement. He may reconsign agency to some possible event. If so, Guilt and shame accompany the uneasiness about a failure of responsibility they feel hopeless to cope with.

Or if not either of the above then the person may try to ESCAPE. He becomes apathetic. His agency for making sense has also vanished, but in his feeling of being alienated, he abandons responsibility and uses his understanding of multiplicity and relativism as a way to avoid commitment. He is drifting and has some sense that later he will find himself to be living a hollow life. This drifting with insecurity about "goodness" of his position can make for such a detachment that precludes any meaningful involvement. He starts to rely on impulse. THIS CAN BECOME A SETTLED CONDITION. "For the students reporting their recovery of care,...their period of alienation appears as a time of transition. In this time the self is lost through the very effort to hold onto it in the face of inexorable change in the world's appearance. It is a space of meaninglessness between received belief and creative faith. In their rebirth they experience in themselves the origin or meanings, which they had previously expected to come to them from outside." (page 92 of the Perry Scheme.)

POSITION 6. Commitment Foreseen.

FROM HERE ON THE PERSON WILL FEEL FRUSTRATION IN TOO-STRUCTURED OF AN ENVIRONMENT.

Now the person thinks he is alone in an uncertain world, making his own decisions, with no one to say he is right. He makes choices aware of relativism and accepts that the agency to do so is within the individual. He sees that to move forward he must make commitments coming from within. He foresees the challenge of responsibility and feels he needs to get on with it. He also senses that the first steps require arbitrary faith or willing suspension of disbelief. He knows he needs to narrow his focus, center himself and become aware of internal, what could be called, spiritual strength.

He starts to see how he must be embracing and transcending of: certainty/doubt, focus/breadth, idealism/realism, tolerance/contempt, stability/flexibility. He senses need for affirmation and incorporation of existential or logical polarities. He senses need to hold polarities in tension in the interest of Truth.

He begins to maintain meaning, coherence, and value while conscious of their partial, limited, and contradictable nature. He begins to understand symbol as symbols and acknowledges the time-place relativity of them. He begins to affirm and hold absolutes in symbols while still acknowledging them to be relativistic. He begins to embrace viewpoints in conflict with his own. Now the person has a field-independent learning style, has learned to scan for information, accepts that hierarchical and analytic notes are evidence of sharpening of cognition. He is willing to take risks, is flexible, perceptive, broad, strategy-minded, and analytical.

The TRANSITION position between Position 6, "Commitment Foreseen", and position 7, "Commitments in Relativism developed" is as follows:

Besides the above, the person feels he is lost if he doesn't decide, that if he can once make one decision, everything else will be OK.

POSITION 7. Commitments in Relativism developed.

The person makes first commitment while being aware of Relativism, and has a vivid sense of CLAIMING AND POWER. He now more fully feels that agency is within him and foresees responsibility with excitement and anticipates more empowering as he makes more commitments and choices. The TRANSITION between Position 7 and Position 8, sees the person having made his first commitment but feeling that everything else is still in limbo and he is foreseeing problems coming from trying to juggle responsibility. He senses need to be: wholehearted--but tentative, to be able to fight for his own values--yet respect others. Now, besides the other ways of studying, the person begins to read not to conciliate Authority, but to learn on his own initiative.

POSITION 8. Commitments in Relativism developed continues.

The person makes several more Commitments while realizing he must find balance and establish painful priorities of energy, action and time. He starts to experience periodically serenity and well-being in the midst of complexity. He has a sense of living with trust in the midst of heightened awareness of risk. He accepts fact that order and disorder are fluctuations in experience. He searches for models of knowledgeability and courage to affirm commitment in full awareness of uncertainty. HE STILL NEEDS TO RECOGNIZE THAT EVEN THE MODEL MUST BE TRANSCENDED, AND HE SENSES HE NEEDS TO DEVELOP IRONY. The TRANSITION between Position 8 and 9 brings trauma. The person feels everything is contradictory and he just can't make sense out of life's dilemmas. But he begins to develop sense of irony and sees he must embrace viewpoints in conflict with his own, not in the old multiplistic way of "separate but equal" or "live and let live" but truly embrace them with what might as well be called "love".

POSITION 9. Commitments in Relativism further developed.

The person now has a developed sense of irony and can more easily embrace other's viewpoints. He can accept life as just that "life", just the way IT is! Now he holds the commitments he makes in a condition of "PROVISIONAL ULTIMACY", meaning that for him what he chooses to be truth IS his truth, and he acts as if it is ultimate truth, but there is still a "provision" for change. He has no illusions about having "arrived" permanently on top of some heap, he is ready and knows he will have to retrace his journey over and over, but he has hope that he will do it each time more wisely. He is aware that he is developing his IDENTITY through Commitment. He can affirm the inseparable nature of the knower and the known--meaning he knows he as knower contributes to what he calls known. He helps weld a community by sharing realization of aloneness and gains strength and intimacy through this shared vulnerability. He has discarded obedience in favor of his own agency, and he continues to select, judge, and build.

Kevin Christensen
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Re: Truth Dancer and The Spirit

Post by _truth dancer »

A couple of thoughts,

At this moment, I don't have time to go into all the details, but I think that Mormonism is the most life-affirming path to "what works" for society and all humans I have seen.


Could it be that because this works for you, you imagine that it is the best for "society and all humans?"

Personally, I find this extraordinary to say the least. I think if it were true, much of the world would embrace it. Further, my personal observation is that Mormonism works for a very, very few; mostly (yes there are exceptions), those who were born into the tribe.

One other point, I think Mormonism is one of the most black and white belief systems around. While you and some others may find a way to interpret it as something else, the bottom line is that it teaches a "one and only way to God," it teaches a one true church, and only its members have the gift of the holy ghost and the true power of God (for men at least). It alone has the keys, the rituals, the covenants, the tokens that enable one to receive the highest reward. No?

Again, I understand that there are those who see it differently but my observation and experience is that unless one is a believing member of the LDS church, the elite temple going type, you are not going to live with God in the CKHL. How can this be any more black and white?

~td~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_mfbukowski
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Re: Truth Dancer and The Spirit

Post by _mfbukowski »

Analytics wrote:I'm not talking about what I think. I'm just trying to understand your paradoxical thoughts on the matter. Is it that different things work for different people depending upon their unique life, or is it that while some things work somewhat for some people, Mormonism is the real deal that would work best for everybody?

Fair enough.

I think that there are only "life affirming" paths and their negation.

Of all the possible life affirming paths, I think only one affirms life the most, and most purely.
Analogy:
So it is kind of like getting to Oz- that is everyone's ultimate goal, but we are all coming from different "places". The road to Oz from LA is different than the one from Siberia, but ultimately all "true" (life-affirming) roads lead to "Oz". Some need to go North, others West, etc. Some get messed up in the bushes etc.

Sound kind of like Lehi's dream?

Gee, I wonder why....
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