Truth Dancer and The Spirit

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_mfbukowski
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Re: Truth Dancer and The Spirit

Post by _mfbukowski »

Euthyphro wrote:My questions were an attempt to learn whether after choosing to believe something like say, a god and a gospel described by Mormon scripture, all of the requisite elements literally spring into being in order to serve your purposes. It would seem from your comments that you think this is so.

In your example when you die you expect to find an afterlife in which your journey to godhood continues according to Mormon tradition. Yet once there you consider the possibility of encountering the fraudulent architect of all that and abandon it all in favor of the next best thing. What literally happens then to that place which only exists because you believe it, or rather did believe it until talking with the ghost of Joseph Smith? Does it despawn and then you are whisked away to some ethereal plane while you figure out whether you prefer catholicism or buddhism? And why is it necessary to accept some belief system wholesale? Surely if reality is that malleable you can choose your beliefs a la carte, like a belief buffet.

I understand that I must have some part of what you said wrong because in a later post you imply your belief in an objective reality. How do these pieces fit together?


I did not come FROM Mormonism to my philosophical beliefs, I came TO Mormonism FROM my philosophical beliefs.

I was a committed humanist, atheistic philosophy student for 15 years before I had even heard of Mormonism, basing my philosophy in William James, John Dewey, German philosophers like Hegel, Nietsche etc all of whom directly or tangentially place human experience ahead of metaphysical issues and all of whom believe that it makes no sense to believe in any metaphysical realm beyond human experience. So anything which is "objective" which is based on a metaphysical reality outside of experience is unknowable. THAT is what I meant by placing the emphasis on the "subjective"-- what is subjective and objective then becomes part of the good old mind/body problem-- Nagel's bat, Dennet, Searle and the boys.

The problem is that I kept having these spiritual experiences which taught me things which I didn't know before which I kept on finding were true later, like factual pieces of information like that a certain person was in trouble or about to be, and it would then turn out to be true.

It also seemed like my life was being directed to do certain things which I would have not considered doing on my own, or so it seemed to me. I knew about William James and his Varieties of Religious Experience which is a book written by a guy exactly like me, having the same kind of experiences I was having, and being at a loss to explain it.

About this time, I discovered Mormonism which I instantly recognized as explaining my little "problem" as well as being harmonious with the above epistemological view and even fitting well with Wittgenstein's view of the "unspeakable".

Most of what I am talking about doesn't even belong on this thread unless you have read the guys I am talking about, so part of me wonders why I am here in the first place-- so I have to switch language games around quite a lot- and sometimes the mix just doesn't make sense I guess.

But to answer your question, if I am wrong there would be no ghost of Joseph Smith to talk to so after I die I will either instantly know I was right or wrong or I won't know anything. Those are the only possibilities I suppose. Having the conversation and then becoming a Buddhist was a story to explain it to the "peanut gallery"

I know you are into political theory and are an anarchist which I nice I guess-- I was into that for a while but it no longer interests me. I think we had that conversation before. And I also know that you think that politics is the only thing which IS important- which is probably true for an atheist--so we have big differences.
_mfbukowski
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Re: Truth Dancer and The Spirit

Post by _mfbukowski »

Ezias wrote:What about what the church takes away?

The church "takes" nothing.

The problem is your unwillingness to give.
_Ezias
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Post by _Ezias »

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_mfbukowski
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Re: Truth Dancer and The Spirit

Post by _mfbukowski »

Ezias wrote:The church destroys culture and encourages conformity. Many valuable beliefs, myths, stories and traditions have been destroyed by the church and other missionary churches. Cultures have been annihilated by missionary work. Profound knowledge lost. History lost. True religious practices lost. It is highly destructive. Do you think that the church would allow the use of ayahuasca or peyote if missionaries converted people who have that as part of the "good" that the church says they can add to? No. They will destroy that practice. Just like the catholics destroyed similar practices with their inquisition on "pagan" Europe.


I think you' re right.

What about all those cultures we are destroying that believe in cannibalism and human sacrifice? Not to mention the improvised explosive devices of some of our our freedom-loving Muslim brethren asserting their political liberty in the sake of jihad.

Cheeesh. You just can't have any fun any more.
_Ezias
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Post by _Ezias »

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_mfbukowski
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Re: Truth Dancer and The Spirit

Post by _mfbukowski »

Ezias wrote:Oh, ok, I see how it is. It is OK to destroy culture because Mormonism is "better". How arbitrary! How ego-centrical! I especially like how you relate the divine sacraments ayahuasca and peyote to cannibalism and human sacrifice, perfect logic there! Actually, for some reason your comment does not compute, probably because it cannot.

Are there destructive beliefs and traditions? Yes. Is it ok to destroy all core beliefs and traditions because some are destructive? Logic and morality say NO my friend, yet this is what "spreading the gospel" does. "We have a better way, the true way, yours is inferior and of the devil". Then they go about using mind control indoctrination techniques to implant submission to the "true way". It makes me sick, especially to think I took part in it.


I am just curious about precisely what you are saying.

Either you are essentially saying "It's all good" (which is the same as "it's all bad" or "there is no difference between good and evil")

Or "Good doesn't matter- we don't need to stand up for it"

Or "It's more important to have diversity and have evil than it is to condemn what is wrong"?

Or do you have some other variation.

Please express it as a maxim which could apply to all people. I am just wondering if you can.

Is it ok to practice human sacrifice if those are your beliefs? Is that what you are saying?

And if you are saying that only some are destructive and only those should go-- who gets to decide what is destructive and what is not? Since this is based on "logic and morality" I would like to explore what you think is logical and moral about this
_Ezias
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Post by _Ezias »

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_mfbukowski
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Re: Truth Dancer and The Spirit

Post by _mfbukowski »

Ezias wrote:Mormonism is not as forceful, it just uses manipulative psychological techniques to gain it's power and crush it's opponents. It uses the white (good teachings and feelings) and black (indoctrinated fear) dots in the Yin Yang to create illusion and draw people into Yin and keep them away from Yang.

I see.

Gotta look out for those dots I guess.
_Ezias
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Post by _Ezias »

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_mfbukowski
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Re: Truth Dancer and The Spirit

Post by _mfbukowski »

Ezias wrote:
Yep, exactly. The dots are illusions. Reality is what is behind them.


1- You never answered my questions
2- I think your understanding of epistemology is a bit.... different.

How is reality behind the dots?

Kind of like behind the 8 ball?

I don't think we quite have a meeting of the minds here. Perhaps it is a difference in brain chemicals.
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