Truth Dancer and The Spirit

[_mfbukowski]

I predict your next religion will be Hinduism.

Nah.
This is the "true principle" found in Hinduism. The idea of re-incarnation gives you nothing more than repenting in the spirit world does.

Besides, who wants to come back as an ant?

(no jokes about my buddy Joseph A.......)

[_Themis]

I hope that clarifies it, but I suppose it won't.

It does confirm what I thought your position to be, and if that makes you happy, then great. I think it's unlikely and really is just wishful thinking based only on a desire to believe. If there is next life and we can make it what ever we want then believe what ever makes you happy. I would still probably become a God if that is really possible.

I believe we create our own "kingdom" which is another way of saying that "we get what we think we are going to get." I also think this idea of creating our own world- universe- is what each of us do every morning when we wake up- but that is for another thread-- we all create our own realities.

The ones who are really good at it get a nice cell at their local Institute. I think we can make an influence the world around to some extent, but their are plenty of limitations, or this world we be far different then it is. Not to mention other people may be competing with our vision of how we may want to make this world into.

[_Themis]

But note that these apologists receive encouragement from "mainstream leaders". What does that tell you?

I haven't seen any encouragement for some of those ideas, which is not the same as allowing people to have other ideas as long as they stay active and believe in certain basics.

naïve? Not in the slightest. Before my graduate work in philosophy, my bachelor's was a dual major, philosophy and psychology from UCLA, and the psychology concentrated on physiological psychology. (chemicals and brain states) I got into psych from pre-med, and got so into physiological psych that it had philosophical implications around just this question.

The real philosophical question is about what reality is and the relationship between what we perceive and what "is".

I did a bunch of responses to a thread here on this forum called "obsucante terroriste" if you want to read more on that point, just search it.

I've read most of that thread. Since we cannot know for sure whether our perceptions represent or communicate accurately what is, then it can be possible that our spiritual experiences are not what we think they may be.

[_truth dancer]

Hi MFB,

Much of the world believes in reincarnation, and no it doesn't mean you come back as an ant. It means you experience all you need to reach unity with God. Perhaps we need to get out of the Christian/Mormon paradigm to compare faith traditions? :-)

And, Buddhism is not a religion at all, it is a philosophy no?

Have you studied Vedanta? How about Native American traditions?

My point is, the LDS world view is not shared by most of humankind so it is difficult to even compare specific teachings that require a particular paradigm.

In addition, many mainstream Christians I know believe the next life is heaven and we are perfected; I know few who believe in that every non-believer is going to Hell.

How many people in the world actually believe this life is a test, and the only opportunity to return to God?

But, let's pretend that no other religion embraces a belief that everyone can progress and eventually be one with or see or experience God (or whatever)... so what?

In order to have this even meaningful in the least one has to go with the idea that there is a one and only true church, that God has created a religion, that God is testing everyone, that God is interacting with humans, that God has no other way to communicate with humans except through men who claim such, etc. etc. etc.

I'm probably getting off topic here... sorry. :-) I just don't see this LDS teaching as significant at all when compared to the rest of humankind's faith traditions and beliefs.

I am enjoying the conversation! :-)

~td~

[_mfbukowski]

I think your insights are helpful and interesting, so thank you. I, however, cannot at this point agree with even the possibility that God would guide me out of the Church considering my circumstances if, in fact, the Church was the ONE with the authority to conduct oridinances essential to me.

Well thanks for your kind words, but again, these ideas are definitely out there, you just didn't find them yet.

I believe that priesthood authority IS the teaching authority of the church and those ordinances are essential to achieve all we can in the Celestial Kingdom, but that has nothing to do with what the spirit tells you you must do in your life.

Another way of saying this is that the ordinances must be "ratified by the holy spirit of promise".

If you don't truly believe that the ordinances will seal you up to receive all you can in the Celestial Kingdom, they won't!

So if the spirit tells you to leave the church, then the spirit could not also be telling you that the ordinances were necessary for your exaltation, could it?

It is one or the other and not both. Wasn't it Tom Sawyer who said "You can't pray a lie"?

The KNOWING in your heart that they ARE efficacious is what MAKES them so. That is the "holy spirit of promise" telling you so.

You cannot create your own universe unless you know you are doing so- it doesn't happen by accident. Unless you know you create your own universe every morning and still think there is something "outside" experience you will never get there. (no I am not a solipsist- social interaction is how we know the "objective"- read about Nagel's bat- this note is for a couple of people who know where I am coming from on this)

But of course we cannot create that certainty of belief to move mountains here- Jesus could- it is theoretically possible we could- but that certainty only comes for most in the afterlife, I think. That is to me what is meant by "all things are created by the power of the priesthood"- it is that power of faith/certainty acting through the authority of that human we call "Father" who has so far surpassed us that we cannot imagine it. Our little universes all reside within his big objective one which we all see and verify, but that is for another time

[_mfbukowski]

Hey guys- life intervenes-- the old objective world raises its head

I am enjoying this but have to take a break. The last post I responded to from mms was as far as I got, so,
To be continued....

[_Themis]

I believe we create our own "kingdom" which is another way of saying that "we get what we think we are going to get." I also think this idea of creating our own world- universe- is what each of us do every morning when we wake up- but that is for another thread-- we all create our own realities.

So does a person who thinks this life is it cease to exist after death according to your beliefs?

[_mfbukowski]

I would still probably become a God if that is really possible.

When have you ever become anything you didn't think you could become?

The ones who are really good at it get a nice cell at their local Institute. I think we can make an influence the world around to some extent, but their are plenty of limitations, or this world we be far different then it is. Not to mention other people may be competing with our vision of how we may want to make this world into.

Either you are being a little snarky or you are not understanding me at all.

Every perception of everything you see is something your brain has created. That is what I meant by "creating your own world".

[_mfbukowski]

I've read most of that thread. Since we cannot know for sure whether our perceptions represent or communicate accurately what is, then it can be possible that our spiritual experiences are not what we think they may be.

Do you find it hard to walk around without bumping into things or something? Can you drive a car ok? It sounds scary to be that unsure of one's perceptions.

Do you know when you are hungry or in love? How do you know that? If you have a pain in your side are you sure you are having one? Do you hallucinate often?

Come on, this stuff is not that hard.

[_mfbukowski]

So does a person who thinks this life is it cease to exist after death according to your beliefs?

No, I have repeatedly spoken of life after death. I can't imagine any more effective way to teach the after life to a skeptic than to have them wake up dead- can you?

We are here to learn, and I would definitely call that a "teaching moment"