Truth Dancer and The Spirit

[_mfbukowski]

I am enjoying the conversation! :-)

~td~

I'm glad you are.

I am an old guy.

I have been studying philosophy and religion over 40 years and I have a pretty good acquaintance with most.

[_Themis]

When have you ever become anything you didn't think you could become?

I don't think most people who use things like meth thought they would become an addict.

Either you are being a little snarky or you are not understanding me at all.

Every perception of everything you see is something your brain has created. That is what I meant by "creating your own world".

We can only perceive the world with the senses like sight, sound, etc.

[_Themis]

Do you find it hard to walk around without bumping into things or something? Can you drive a car ok? It sounds scary to be that unsure of one's perceptions.

I never said that I don't trust my senses. It all depends on how reliable they are, and even the more reliable ones are not 100%, so yes sometimes we do bump into things.

Do you know when you are hungry or in love? How do you know that? If you have a pain in your side are you sure you are having one? Do you hallucinate often?

Come on, this stuff is not that hard.

I had an Aunt who had her leg amputated, but she said she could still feel it there, so yes, our brain can trick us or send false signals. Sometimes we get certain sensations and may incorrectly interpret them as hunger pains. Feelings, emotions and spiritual experiences are far more subjective and tend to be less reliable then things like sight and sound, so it's not that hard to incorrectly interpret them, especially if we already have desired interpretations we want to attach them to.

[_Themis]

No, I have repeatedly spoken of life after death. I can't imagine any more effective way to teach the after life to a skeptic than to have them wake up dead- can you?

We are here to learn, and I would definitely call that a "teaching moment"

This just indicates that you don't really believe your statement, "we get what we think we are going to get", and that you believe in a reality external to your senses and experiences.

[_mfbukowski]

We can only perceive the world with the senses like sight, sound, etc.

No, the senses perceive nothing. All they do is input nerve impulses to the brain.

You cannot divorce "interpretation" from "perception" - it is one process. It is experience.

[_mfbukowski]

Feelings, emotions and spiritual experiences are far more subjective and tend to be less reliable then things like sight and sound, so it's not that hard to incorrectly interpret them, especially if we already have desired interpretations we want to attach them to.

Less reliable for what? Precisely what is the difference between a "feeling" and a "sight" or whatever you want to call it. You cannot divorce them. Both are brain manufactured.

Go ahead. Define the difference. Do what no philosopher has done in two thousand years. Google "philosophy of mind" and see if you get a few hits.

This is going nowhere fast.

I think we are going backwards. You are a great guy, but it seems you are being argumentative for its own sake.

[_Yong Xi]

Do you know when you are hungry or in love? How do you know that? If you have a pain in your side are you sure you are having one? Do you hallucinate often?

Come on, this stuff is not that hard.

I wish you were around when I have an attack of diarrhea. I sure would like to perceive it differently.

[_Themis]

We can only perceive the world with the senses like sight, sound, etc.

No, the senses perceive nothing. All they do is input nerve impulses to the brain.

You cannot divorce "interpretation" from "perception" - it is one process. It is experience.

That is essentially what I'm saying, even though I may have used the wrong words.

[_Themis]

I think we are going backwards. You are a great guy, but it seems you are being argumentative for its own sake.

I think you are a great guy to, but I recall your first post in this thread was essentially an attack on non-believers, so I might suggest looking into the mirror first. I also gave what I think are reasonable alternative explanations to the spiritual experience. If you could provide reasonable reason why they may be wrong I'm all ears.

Less reliable for what? Precisely what is the difference between a "feeling" and a "sight" or whatever you want to call it. You cannot divorce them. Both are brain manufactured.

This is going nowhere fast.

I never said we can divorce them, and yes I agree that they are both manufactured in the brain, but you seem to be the argumentative one here, since I don't think for a minute that you think feelings are as reliable or work as well as things like sight and sound, so yes it does seem that this is going nowhere fast, but I still like you:)

[_Analytics]

Every perception of everything you see is something your brain has created. That is what I meant by "creating your own world".

Have you seen "What the {bleep} Do We Know?" It proposes this philosophical belief where we create our own reality in a literal way, and it tries to justify this belief or tie it to Quantum Mechanics. What I got out of it was that consciousness can actually influence the outcome of what a scientist would call a purely stochastic quantum process.

You are certainly an odd duck of a Mormon. I'd find the church a lot more tolerable if it had more people like you and actually taught your spin on things.