MAD Posters Affirm Church's Paranoia & Lack of Transparency

[_ttribe]

While you were undoubtedly aware that Joseph Smith received and to some extent obeyed an alleged revelation on the matter, you certainly couldn’t have understood the full context of what really happened without turning to a source such as Fawn Brodie.

Didn't I basically already say that?

[_Trevor]

With all due respect to the apologists on this thread, I am a little put off by this notion that it is somehow unbelievable that members could not know that Joseph Smith was a polygamist or not know the more interesting details about polygamy and polyandry until they were hit with anti-Mormon or critical information on the internet. Almost invariably, apologists regale us with the details about their discovery of these facts, as though one would have had to live on the planet Mars not to have encountered this information.

There is a very simple fact that seems to elude these well-meaning apologists: not everyone is a bookworm about Mormonism, and that is not really an unacceptable crime. If you believe in God, I hope you think that He loves the people who have hobbies other than reading Mormon history and who are likely to believe the facile, but erroneous, folkloric apologetic about caring for widows, etc. And, when these folks are hit with the disturbing details, I think it is entirely understandable why they would be troubled. They have come to realize that the prophet they revere did things that they take for granted as being morally wrong.

What is interesting to me is that so many apologists have trouble understanding why these members should have been ignorant or should be troubled, when from an outsider's perspective it is so much more unusual that the apologists behave as though there is nothing the least bit troubling about Joseph Smith's complicated marital relations.

[_ttribe]

With all due respect to the apologists on this thread, I am a little put off by this notion that it is somehow unbelievable that members could not know that Joseph Smith was a polygamist or not know the more interesting details about polygamy and polyandry until they were hit with anti-Mormon or critical information on the internet. Almost invariably, apologists regale us with the details about their discovery of these facts, as though one would have had to live on the planet Mars not to have encountered this information.

You are vastly overstating (at least) my position.

There is a very simple fact that seems to elude these well-meaning apologists: not everyone is a bookworm about Mormonism, and that is not really an unacceptable crime. If you believe in God, I hope you think that He loves the people who have hobbies other than reading Mormon history and who are likely to believe the facile, but erroneous, folkloric apologetic about caring for widows, etc. And, when these folks are hit with the disturbing details, I think it is entirely understandable why they would be troubled. They have come to realize that the prophet they revere did things that they take for granted as being morally wrong.

I, for one, admitted a certain amount of empathy for this situation, I believe.

What is interesting to me is that so many apologists have trouble understanding why these members should have been ignorant or should be troubled, when from an outsider's perspective it is so much more unusual that the apologists behave as though there is nothing the least bit troubling about Joseph Smith's complicated marital relations.

Who did that? Or, is this just a knee-jerk reaction against some nebulous group of "apologists"?

[_Nimrod]

I have definitely had Church leaders dissuade me from reading material that wasn't "faith-promoting," even if it was official Church material.

I've witnessed such a phenomenon as well; it bothers me to no end.

On my mission, we were restricted to reading:

1-BoM, Bible, D&C and PofGP (and were with a wink and a nod discouraged from reading the PofGP)

2-The little white missionary handbook

3-The 7 lessons

4-A Marvelous Work and a Wonder by L Richards

5-Jesus the Christ by J Talmadge.

That's it. All else was verboten, including Articles of Faith by J Talmadge.

During the 4 months I was in the office, there was a lot of 'ratting out' by companions of the other for reading anything else. (It surprised me how the rats hadn't figured out that they would become marked for the rest of their missions, sent to dive areas, get lousy companions and not advance as rapidly--the mission president didn't want to hear it, didn't want to deal with it. Rats are rats, he used to say.)

Growing up, I was repeatedly told in Sunday School, Primary and Priesthood meetings that it was slanderous Fawn Brodie who claimed that Joseph Smith was polygamous, and that polygamy only occurred in Utah because so many men died crossing the Plains to Utah, there were old widows that needed to be taken care of--that's all that BY and JT were doing. I was told, by bishops, stake high council members, members of stake presidencies, and seminary teachers that polygamy claims against Joseph Smith were merely made by evil enemies to besmirch him, but it was not true. Keep in mind, I grew behind the Zion Curtain where the whitewashing is done best.

[_ttribe]

On my mission, we were restricted to reading:

1-BoM, Bible, D&C and PofGP (and were with a wink and a nod discouraged from reading the PofGP)

2-The little white missionary handbook

3-The 7 lessons

4-A Marvelous Work and a Wonder by L Richards

5-Jesus the Christ by J Talmadge.

That's it. All else was verboten, including Articles of Faith by J Talmadge.

During the 4 months I was in the office, there was a lot of 'ratting out' by companions of the other for reading anything else. (It surprised me how the rats hadn't figured out that they would become marked for the rest of their missions, sent to dive areas, get lousy companions and not advance as rapidly--the mission president didn't want to hear it, didn't want to deal with it. Rats are rats, he used to say.)

Growing up, I was repeatedly told in Sunday School, Primary and Priesthood meetings that it was slanderous Fawn Brodie who claimed that Joseph Smith was polygamous, and that polygamy only occurred in Utah because so many men died crossing the Plains to Utah, there were old widows that needed to be taken care of--that's all that BY and JT were doing. I was told, by bishops, stake high council members, members of stake presidencies, and seminary teachers that polygamy claims against Joseph Smith were merely made by evil enemies to besmirch him, but it was not true. Keep in mind, I grew behind the Zion Curtain where the whitewashing is done best.

Taking all of that at face value (and I have no reason not to), I can understand why someone in your position might be a little p.o.'d at finding other, true, information on these subjects.

[_Analytics]

What is interesting to me is that so many apologists have trouble understanding why these members should have been ignorant or should be troubled, when from an outsider's perspective it is so much more unusual that the apologists behave as though there is nothing the least bit troubling about Joseph Smith's complicated marital relations.

Who did that? Or, is this just a knee-jerk reaction against some nebulous group of "apologists"?

That sounds a lot like you when you said, "I'm curious, I'm confident you knew that BY and John Taylor had more than one wife; were you as disturbed by their marriages as you were with the discovery that Joseph Smith had other marriages besides his first?"

Perhaps your position is that Joseph Smith practicing polygamy isn't messy or disturbing, but how he did it might be?

[_Rambo]

Nimrod is telling the truth that is for sure!

[_Nimrod]

On my mission, we were restricted to reading:

1-BoM, Bible, D&C and PofGP (and were with a wink and a nod discouraged from reading the PofGP)

2-The little white missionary handbook

3-The 7 lessons

4-A Marvelous Work and a Wonder by L Richards

5-Jesus the Christ by J Talmadge.

That's it. All else was verboten, including Articles of Faith by J Talmadge.

During the 4 months I was in the office, there was a lot of 'ratting out' by companions of the other for reading anything else. (It surprised me how the rats hadn't figured out that they would become marked for the rest of their missions, sent to dive areas, get lousy companions and not advance as rapidly--the mission president didn't want to hear it, didn't want to deal with it. Rats are rats, he used to say.)

Growing up, I was repeatedly told in Sunday School, Primary and Priesthood meetings that it was slanderous Fawn Brodie who claimed that Joseph Smith was polygamous, and that polygamy only occurred in Utah because so many men died crossing the Plains to Utah, there were old widows that needed to be taken care of--that's all that BY and JT were doing. I was told, by bishops, stake high council members, members of stake presidencies, and seminary teachers that polygamy claims against Joseph Smith were merely made by evil enemies to besmirch him, but it was not true. Keep in mind, I grew behind the Zion Curtain where the whitewashing is done best.

Taking all of that at face value (and I have no reason not to), I can understand why someone in your position might be a little p.o.'d at finding other, true, information on these subjects.

I would guess, but could very well be wrong, that ttribe might have grown up a bit further from the epicenter of LDS Inc than I did. I have found that those that grew up in the U.S., but outside Utah, southern Idaho, and the very northern part of Arizona knew much more of the details of Joseph Smith and early Mormonism than those inside the Zion Curtain.

[_ttribe]

That sounds a lot like you when you said, "I'm curious, I'm confident you knew that BY and John Taylor had more than one wife; were you as disturbed by their marriages as you were with the discovery that Joseph Smith had other marriages besides his first?"

Perhaps your position is that Joseph Smith practicing polygamy isn't messy or disturbing, but how he did it might be?

I was trying to drill down a little and find out if the person to whom I was posing the question was being consistent in the application of his fear/disgust/revulsion, etc. I certainly wasn't being accusatory in asking the question itself.

[_ttribe]

I would guess, but could very well be wrong, that ttribe might have grown up a bit further from the epicenter of LDS Inc than I did. I have found that those that grew up in the U.S., but outside Utah, southern Idaho, and the very northern part of Arizona knew much more of the details of Joseph Smith and early Mormonism than those inside the Zion Curtain.

Grew up in the Phoenix area. However, I think there are additional variables involved here (at least in my case).