Martin Harris the witness

[_zeezrom]

I just saw this morning that Martin Harris saw a stone box slip into the ground by an unseen power and that he saw creatures appearing on his chest that nobody else could see. http://mormonthink.com/witnessesweb.htm#stonebox

I learned on Wednesday that he saw Jesus in the shape of a deer.

A while back I saw this on FAIR: Martin Harris frequently told people that he did not see the golden plates and the angel with his natural eyes but rather with “spiritual eyes” or the “eye of faith.” http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Witnesses/%22Eye_of_Faith%22_and_%22Spiritual_Eye%22_statements_by_Martin_Harris

I'm feeling like Martin needs to be checked off as not a credible witness of the Golden Plates.

I have not found a defense against his visions/imaginings. Is there one?

Thanks,

Zee.

[_harmony]

I have not found a defense against his visions/imaginings. Is there one?

Thanks,

Zee.

Daniel seems to think he's unimpeachable as a witness. Me... not so much.

[_Euthyphro]

Martin Harris dumb, dumb, dumb; Lucy Harris smart, smart, smaaaart.

[_Rambo]

This was SFS defense.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12228

Some critics charge Martin Harris testimony suspect because he said his belief in Shakerism was greater than it was for the Book of Mormon. This is suspect because this testimony is a second hand account and at about the same time he testified to a couple of people about the Book of Mormon. Martin Harris on his death bed said that he knew the Book of Mormon was not fake.

Harris said he saw the plates with his spiritual eyes. He explains this by saying
"Of course we were in the spirit when we had the view, for no man can behold the face of an angel, except in a spiritual view, but we were in the body also, and everything was as natural to us, as it is at any time."

Martin Harris dumb, dumb, dumb; Lucy Harris smart, smart, smaaaart.

haha I just saw this South Park episode for the first time.

[_badseed]

One of the issues with Harris is that he was, as Grant Palmer put it, a spiritual gypsy or sorts. The concern with him isn't that he wouldn't believe in supernatural spiritual events— it's that he wouldn't doubt any of them.


Harris had a history of visions and visitations both before and after his involvement with Joseph Smith. "The foregoing tendencies explain the spiritual wanderlust that afflicted the solitary witness at Kirtland. In this period of his life he changed his religious position eight times, including a rebaptism by a Nauvoo missionary in 1842. Every affiliation of Martin Harris was with some Mormon group, except when he was affiliated with the Shaker belief..." (Improvement Era, March 1969, page 63)


Martin Harris' involvement with the Shakers raises some serious doubts regarding his belief in the Book of Mormon. We feel that a believer in the Book of Mormon could not accept these revelations without repudiating the teachings of Joseph Smith. The Shakers, for example, felt that "Christ has made his second appearance on earth, in a chosen female known by the name of Ann Lee, and acknowledged by us as our blessed Mother in the work of redemption." (Sacred Roll and Book, page 358)


Speaking of his experiences with the Shakers:
Harris declared repeatedly that he had as much evidence for a Shaker book he had as for the Book of Mormon. (The Braden and Kelly Debate, page 173)


Then if you consider the Stephen Burnett letter from 1838 (and other sources as well) it appears that Martin's experience with the plates (and those of all the other witnesses according to Harris) were experienced spiritually or mentally rather than literally.


With all that background I now view Harris' remarks as less literal. Although the experiences seemed real to him I doubt they were in the same way I think of 'real.' Personally I think much of what Harris said reflects a tendency in his time to exaggerate and interpret little thing everything as a spiritual experience.

[_TAK]

that's what made him such a perfect sucker for Jos. Smith to con $5k off him...