Is the Book of Mormon really a "keystone" of LDS religion?

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_Jersey Girl
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon really a "keystone" of LDS religion?

Post by _Jersey Girl »

scripturesearcher
Yes.

Here is what I believe:
That there is 1 heaven and 1 hell.
Heaven is spending eternity with our God.
Hell is eternal separation from God.
That there may be different rewards in heaven based on the life you lived on earth, but all would have access to God.



I asked you that question for a reason, scripturesearcher. I wondered if you were familiar with the Seven Heavens in Judaism that are referenced in the Old Testament and New Testament. I don't see evidence that you are familiar with such or if you are, you haven't acknowledged it.

For example, Paul's reference to the Third Heaven.

If you are going to challenge LDS here, you need to be honest about what is stated in the Bible that you yourself accept as scripture.

Just so you know, I'm not giving you a hard time for no good reason, I am not LDS nor have I ever been LDS. If I, who shares most of your beliefs, can challenge you on the levels of heaven, so can LDS.

You must be honest if you are going to engage LDS on some of these issues. Just a bit of unsolicited friendly advice.

:-)
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon really a "keystone" of LDS religion?

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Here, let me mess with you a bit, scripturesearcher. Some of the material that you're posting could have been posted by me not so many years back. If you doubt that, I will repost some of my old posts from elsewhere.

Let's look at this...

Here is some scripture from both the Bible and the Book of Mormon that does equate to a contradiction from the churches teachings.

1. God the Father has a body of flesh and bones
2. God the Father was once a man
The Bible
John 4:24 - "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."


You can't use John 4:24 to challenge that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones or was once a man.

Let me tell you why.

John 4:24 doesn't stipulate that God the Father is a Spirit. You lose the comparison right there.

While John 4:24 states that God is a Spirit....then, you have to deal with the concept that Jesus is God and entered human history in flesh and blood form.

See?
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon really a "keystone" of LDS religion?

Post by _Jersey Girl »

The proof is in the reposting, scripturesearcher. Does the following look at all familiar? I wrote this in 2003:

GOD:Mormonism vs CHRISTIANITY
Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses,
vol.10, page 223.

"God was once a man on earth, with a physical body of flesh and bone who through spiritual development became the God that we know--an exalted man who is now in charge of our planet."

"The Lord created you and me for the purpose of becoming gods like himself. We are created to become gods like unto our father in heaven...Those who attain exhaltation are gods".

What the Bible says about God:

Psalm 93:2 God is eternal
1John 5:20 God is true
Genesis 1:1 God is self existent
Deut. 6:4 God is one (monotheistic)
Isaiah 44:6 God is First and Last,apart from him there is no other
Isaiah 43: 10-11 Before me there was no other God formed
John 4:23-24 God is spirit
Romans 11:33-36 No one knows the mind of the Lord
Isaiah 42:8 God will not share glory
1Timothy 1:17 God is eternal, immortal, invisible
Malachi 3:6 God does not change
Jeremiah 10:10 God is the true God, the eternal God
Numbers 23:19 God is not man or son of man

Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon really a "keystone" of LDS religion?

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Going to put my LDS pseudo apologist hat on, scripturesearcher...

You
Here are a few of the contradictions between the Book of Mormon and the current LDS teachings:

1. God the Father has a body of flesh and bones
2. God the Father was once a man
3. Existence of many gods

Please show me in the Book of Mormon where it says that God is or was a man or that God has a physical body of flesh and bones.
Please show me in the Book of Mormon where it says there is more than one true and living God.



Please show me in the Old Testament where it clearly discusses the Atonement.

See?

I could do more, but it's late. Also, the Bible states over and over that there are many gods. You need to know what the "god" is in reference to. An immortal? A pagan god?

Again, if you are going to challenge LDS scripture, many LDS are going to come right back and turn the tables on you in pointing out similar challenges in the Bible.

Just sayin'
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
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_scripturesearcher
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon really a "keystone" of LDS religion?

Post by _scripturesearcher »

Jersey Girl wrote:scripturesearcher
Yes.

Here is what I believe:
That there is 1 heaven and 1 hell.
Heaven is spending eternity with our God.
Hell is eternal separation from God.
That there may be different rewards in heaven based on the life you lived on earth, but all would have access to God.



I asked you that question for a reason, scripturesearcher. I wondered if you were familiar with the Seven Heavens in Judaism that are referenced in the Old Testament and New Testament. I don't see evidence that you are familiar with such or if you are, you haven't acknowledged it.

For example, Paul's reference to the Third Heaven.

If you are going to challenge LDS here, you need to be honest about what is stated in the Bible that you yourself accept as scripture.

Just so you know, I'm not giving you a hard time for no good reason, I am not LDS nor have I ever been LDS. If I, who shares most of your beliefs, can challenge you on the levels of heaven, so can LDS.

You must be honest if you are going to engage LDS on some of these issues. Just a bit of unsolicited friendly advice.

:-)


Let me start off by saying that Heaven is something that we will not be able to fully comprehend until we experience it.
With that said, here is my take on the Third Heaven:

The Jews from the biblical times did not have all of the knowledge that we have today with scientific terms to convey messages. What they would do is try to describe things in terms that they could identify with and something they could represent visually. When they attempted to explain the universe, they came up with something similar to an onion. It had various layers.

The different layers were called "firmament" or shamayim (heavens or sky) in the Old Testament or "heavens" in the New Testament era. There were many other non-biblical writings that describe these layers also. This model was said to still be in use in the Middle Ages. Sometimes the model had 7 heavens and sometimes 3.

The first heaven (the core) represented the visible physical world that all people can see.

The second heaven is composed of water that is a firmament that divides the earth from the heavenly beings.

The third heaven was beyond the sight of human beings and where God dwells.

So where Paul is writing and claims to have seen the risen Christ, he is describing his own experience in relative terms so that others would be able to understand.

So in a nut shell, Paul is not referring to 3 different heavens, but he is describing the part of heaven. Basically when people speak of heaven, they would be referring to the same as the third heaven. In other words, there is 1 heaven with more than 1 name or description.

Here is a website that can explains it a lot better than my attempt:
http://www.cresourcei.org/thirdheaven.html

With that said, I still stand by my earlier statement:

Here is what I believe:
That there is 1 heaven and 1 hell.
Heaven is spending eternity with our God.
Hell is eternal separation from God.
That there may be different rewards in heaven based on the life you lived on earth, but all would have access to God.
Scripture Searcher
http://ScriptureSearcher.com
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon really a "keystone" of LDS religion?

Post by _Jersey Girl »

scripturesearcher,

I want to apologize for being unduly rude to you earlier. It was unwarranted and I'll try not to do that again.

Jersey Girl
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_scripturesearcher
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Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:19 am

Re: Is the Book of Mormon really a "keystone" of LDS religion?

Post by _scripturesearcher »

Jersey Girl wrote:Here, let me mess with you a bit, scripturesearcher. Some of the material that you're posting could have been posted by me not so many years back. If you doubt that, I will repost some of my old posts from elsewhere.

Let's look at this...

Here is some scripture from both the Bible and the Book of Mormon that does equate to a contradiction from the churches teachings.

1. God the Father has a body of flesh and bones
2. God the Father was once a man
The Bible
John 4:24 - "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."


You can't use John 4:24 to challenge that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones or was once a man.

Let me tell you why.

John 4:24 doesn't stipulate that God the Father is a Spirit. You lose the comparison right there.

While John 4:24 states that God is a Spirit....then, you have to deal with the concept that Jesus is God and entered human history in flesh and blood form.

See?


Yes JerseyGirl, I think I see your point.
I believe that that verse is 1 of many that help us to identify God.

I believe that God is omnipresent (meaning he can be any where at any time and in more than one place at a time).

The LDS teaching that God has flesh and bones seems to put a physical limitation around a limitless God.

I may see if I can find the references some time if anyone needs them or cares.
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_scripturesearcher
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon really a "keystone" of LDS religion?

Post by _scripturesearcher »

Jersey Girl wrote:The proof is in the reposting, scripturesearcher. Does the following look at all familiar? I wrote this in 2003:

GOD:Mormonism vs CHRISTIANITY
Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses,
vol.10, page 223.

"God was once a man on earth, with a physical body of flesh and bone who through spiritual development became the God that we know--an exalted man who is now in charge of our planet."

"The Lord created you and me for the purpose of becoming gods like himself. We are created to become gods like unto our father in heaven...Those who attain exhaltation are gods".

What the Bible says about God:

Psalm 93:2 God is eternal
1John 5:20 God is true
Genesis 1:1 God is self existent
Deut. 6:4 God is one (monotheistic)
Isaiah 44:6 God is First and Last,apart from him there is no other
Isaiah 43: 10-11 Before me there was no other God formed
John 4:23-24 God is spirit
Romans 11:33-36 No one knows the mind of the Lord
Isaiah 42:8 God will not share glory
1Timothy 1:17 God is eternal, immortal, invisible
Malachi 3:6 God does not change
Jeremiah 10:10 God is the true God, the eternal God
Numbers 23:19 God is not man or son of man



Wow Jersey Girl!
That is amazingly similar and very odd considering I had never seen your post and mine was based on my personal study.
I actually like your post better with the scripture references.
I promise you that I did not copy from you.
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_scripturesearcher
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon really a "keystone" of LDS religion?

Post by _scripturesearcher »

Jersey Girl wrote:Going to put my LDS pseudo apologist hat on, scripturesearcher...

Please show me in the Old Testament where it clearly discusses the Atonement.

I don't think I ever said that it did. Which is very different from the OP.
The OP purpose is to help me understand how the Book of Mormon can be the "keystone" if it does not seem to really even be used.
I do believe that the Bible clearly explains the Atonement and it's fullness.
However, the Book of Mormon claims to be restoring plain and precious truths that the Bible is missing. These are the truths that I am having a hard time finding.

Jersey Girl wrote:I could do more, but it's late. Also, the Bible states over and over that there are many gods. You need to know what the "god" is in reference to. An immortal? A pagan god?

Exactly right. Sometimes you must look at the Hebrew to know for sure the proper context the word is being used. Similar for Lord vs LORD. When it says "God" it is a reference to the immortal creator. When it says "god" it is referring to another pagan god.

Jersey Girl wrote:Again, if you are going to challenge LDS scripture, many LDS are going to come right back and turn the tables on you in pointing out similar challenges in the Bible.

I agree that they have the right to challenge me also, but in this case it is the Book of Mormon itself making the claim that I am questioning.
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Re: Is the Book of Mormon really a "keystone" of LDS religion?

Post by _scripturesearcher »

Jersey Girl wrote:scripturesearcher,

I want to apologize for being unduly rude to you earlier. It was unwarranted and I'll try not to do that again.

Jersey Girl


Hey Jersey Girl,
No problem. I appreciate your honesty and integrity.
I also appreciate the feedback and friendly advice you have shown me.

Iron sharpens iron.

I don't claim to have all of the answers or to be correct all the time.
I am merely stating my opinion based on my own personal study and interpretation of the scriptures.
Scripture Searcher
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