Joseph Smith: Lie or self delusion?

[_Malcolm]

back in my TBM days, a non believing relative gave me a pamphlet which suggested that Joseph Smith First Vision stemmed from an hallucination following a convulsion or Epileptic fit, I dismissed it at the time, but have since wondered if there was a history of infantile/teenage convulsions that could have prompted the vision.?

I have no medical knowledge, comments like, "I found my strength so exhausted as to render me entirely unable".
"My strength entirely failed me, and I fell helpless on the ground, and for a time was quite unconscious of anything". do make me think that some sort of convulsion may have taken place.

Joseph Smith could have formed his vision out of the dream state that he found himself in. If true, that would suggest delusion. In such a state he could convince himself that he actually had seen a vision. If he truly believed it then it was not a lie. As for the societal organisation of the church, he
appeared to have great ideas at first, but in truth lost his way by bringing in too many changes too quickly. From visionary farm boy to Prophet, Mayor and Presidential Candidate.

[Guest]

So even though we have this subjective reality, we are okay thinking and preaching it is totally and completely real? The audience (most TBMs) are not aware of a difference... At least I did not think of a difference.

I know that you have previously commented that you had read a little of James Fowler's book Stages of Faith. If I remember you expressed a distaste for being pigeon holed and put on a spiritual assembly line :-) I agree with your sentiments. That being said, I hope you will forgive me for using some of his terminology and classifications to provide my own thoughts on the matter.

Stage 3 thinkers, which IMHO comprise the bulk of the church, have little desire to fashion objective reality and to make it into something greater. Instead the desire to follow someone else predetermined path and be told what to do to build a better world. During this stage they often gain faith in a higher power that is inspired by the vision of the potential reality that is oft times presented by the experience of revelation in subjective reality. IMHO one of the important parts of Stage 3 is to gain a testimony of the creative power that lies in experiencing subjective reality. However, interacting consciously with this realm of subjective experience is problematic and can often lead one to many missteps. This is why stage 4 is SOOO important.

Stage 4 of Faith is largely built HONING ones ability to rationally dissect objective reality and to dig into how objective reality ACTUALLY works. They want proof for everything. They want to figure out the natural causes of everything. They doubt everything. They deconstruct their entire belief structure trying to put in on a surer foundation. For this I applaud them. In the process they begin to see all the potential pitfalls of subjective reality, and often completely reject it altogether.

Stage 5 faith often begins to realize that certain problems are not easily solved with logic, rational thinking, and appeals solely the conscious mind. Instead they realize that chaos, random walks and search paths, and subtly nudging the subconscious mind has great power. However, they should never give up what they learned in Stage 4. If something learned in subjective reality CAN'T be made to work in objective reality, if the answer is untenable, they need to skills learned in stage four to simply jettison what is learned from the subjective unconscious world.

Sorry for the longwinded side trail just to get to this point. I think it may be OK, though I am not sure, to allow Stage 3 thinkers to believe that revelation lives in the realm of objective reality. One reason is that Stage 3 people, who don't have the skills of Stage 4, are ill equipped to venture into these realms. However, someone at Stage 4 should be CLEARLY told that revelation and scripture are not things derived from objective reality. One important step of Stage four is to learn that scripture and revelation are, in fact, not from objective reality. This insight allows them question and doubt the knowledge derived from this source, a skill which is VITALLY needed if one is to re engage these methodologies at Stage 5.

In truthfullness, the church is woefully inadequate at dealing with Stage 4 and Stage 5 faith. In some ways I think this is GREAT!!! There is an independence learned at Stage 4 that is vital, and a distancing from the church, IMHO is probably vitally to spiritual development. However, the interdependence learned at Stage 5 is also an important factor.

Also, in truth, I think that many in the leadership are themselves in Stage 3 and they don't know that Joseph Smith's revelatory experiences derive from subjective reality. Since they just don't know, they don't teach that is the case. This makes me somewhat sad :-(

[_George Miller]

back in my TBM days, a non believing relative gave me a pamphlet which suggested that Joseph Smith First Vision stemmed from an hallucination following a convulsion or Epileptic fit, I dismissed it at the time, but have since wondered if there was a history of infantile/teenage convulsions that could have prompted the vision?

I have heard this argument before. I think it is unlikely. More likely, at least to me, is that the methodologies used in his treasure seeking days were used to have the first vision. But that is just my opinion.

[_why me]

Well, it was not just Joseph Smith. We need to consider the 11 witnesses and their wives, plus emma. Were the 11 witnesses also liars and delusional? Were they in on the 'con'? If it were just Joseph we could safely apply the con game since we would have no witnesses. But in this case, we have plenty of witnesses.

So zee's question is rather biased. But it does fit his new world view. The thing is: these kind of questions have been asked over and over again on exer internet boards. Nothing big here.

[_George Miller]

I think the issue is trying to go the Mormon route of reducing all claims to truth to spiritual experience. If you are going to allow spiritual experience to be a means of discovering truth then it makes much more sense to go with a Methodist epistemology. For a Methodist there are four sources of truth 1) scripture, 2) tradition, 3) reason, and 4) spiritual experience. Basically, if the only thing you can claim is that you have an experience, but you can't back up that claim with scripture or reason or tradition, then you might want to reconsider whether what you experienced is really testifying to the truth, or maybe you a suffering from what used to be called enthusiasm.

Amen Hallelujah!!! This is right ON!!!

I also think that the few times that the times that Joseph Smith talked about the process of revelation that he also emphasized this point. Of course the symbolic teaching in the endowment that instruct one how to "ask and and receive" in the "true order of prayer" also convey the same message.

[_why me]

I have heard this argument before. I think it is unlikely. More likely, at least to me, is that the methodologies used in his treasure seeking days were used to have the first vision. But that is just my opinion.

And then again, we need to consider the visions with oliver and Joseph when the priesthood was restored. Was oliver a liar and delusional too?

[Guest]

Well, it was not just Joseph Smith. We need to consider the 11 witnesses and their wives, plus emma. Were the 11 witnesses also liars and delusional? Were they in on the 'con'? If it were just Joseph we could safely apply the con game since we would have no witnesses. But in this case, we have plenty of witnesses.

So zee's question is rather biased. But it does fit his new world view. The thing is: these kind of questions have been asked over and over again on exer internet boards. Nothing big here.

The record clearly, at least in my own eyes, suggests that the witness of the 3 witnesses was clearly in the realm of subjective reality. Of course that might be my own subjective view :-)

[_George Miller]

I have heard this argument before. I think it is unlikely. More likely, at least to me, is that the methodologies used in his treasure seeking days were used to have the first vision. But that is just my opinion.

And then again, we need to consider the visions with oliver and Joseph when the priesthood was restored. Was oliver a liar and delusional too?

Oliver was of course well trained in the process of accessing subjective reality through his interest in "working with the rod." Shared visions are not uncommon among those who have dabbled in pathworking. In addition having experienced such spiritual work, I think that their discussions bear some of the tell-tale signs of being a visionary experience playing out in the realms of subjective reality.

[Rikiti]

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[_beastie]

I hold the admittedly minority view that Joseph Smith likely had bipolar. There is a family history of bipolar in his descendants, including his son David, who was institutionalized. People with bipolar sometimes have hallucinations, and when they do, they are normally religious in nature.

I do recognize there are two other possibilities. One is TD's theory of delusion disorder, grandiosity type. He could quite easily fit this diagnosis, and the only reason I hesitate is due to the strong family history of bipolar.

The other possibility is that Joseph Smith genuinely believed he was called of God, but told lies or exaggerated in order to make it easier for others to believe his calling. Modern-day televangelists or faith healers engage in this behavior.

I do think that Joseph Smith believed in his own religious calling, for the very simple reason that he so successfully convinced others to believe in it, as well. Human nature is such that the best and most convincing liars are those who believe their own lies, and hence can be convincing salespeople.

I also think the fact that he constructed a religious justification for polygamy indicates he probably genuinely believed and was concerned about pleasing God. If he secretly didn't believe at all, he could have just boinked followers on the side like others have done. But it was clearly important to him to have some religious justification for his extra-marital sexuality. That seems to indicate genuine belief to me.