Did Joseph Smith believe in the Trinity prior to 1831?

[Guest]

A couple of additional points I haven't see yet.

First, not only does the Book of Mormon now have wording in it that reflects a view of the Godhead more in common with traditional Christianity than modern LDS theology, it was edited in the 1837 edition to remove the most difficult examples of this, like this one -

1 Nephi 13:40

1830 edition - "... These last records ... shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Eternal Father and the Savior ... "

Current reading - "... These last records ... shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior ..."

I'm not sure how Joseph Smith's changing view can explain this away without suggesting Joseph Smith had a heavier hand in providing the material of the Book of Mormon than is usually assumed. At least, assumed by the non-critic.

Also, consider this -

History of the Church, Vol. 1 - the account of the three witnesses receiving their witness of the plates -

pg. 54, end of page -

"Not many days after the above commandment was given, we four, viz., Martin Harris, David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery and myself, agreed to retire into the woods, and try to obtain, by fervent and humble prayer, the fulfilment of the promises given in the above revelation--that they should have a view of the plates. We accordingly made choice of a piece of woods convenient to Mr. Whitmer's house, to which we retired, and having knelt down, we began to pray in much faith to Almighty God to bestow upon us a realization of these promises.

According to previous arrangement, I commenced prayer to our Heavenly Father, and was followed by each of the others in succession. We did not at the first trial, however, obtain any answer or manifestation of divine favor in our behalf. We again observed the same order of prayer, each calling on and praying fervently to God in rotation, but with the same result as before.

Upon this, our second failure, Martin Harris proposed that he should withdraw himself from us, believing, as he expressed himself, that his presence was the cause of our not obtaining what we wished for. He accordingly withdrew from us, and we knelt down again, and had not been many minutes engaged in prayer, when presently we beheld a light above us in the air, of exceeding brightness; and behold, an angel stood before us. In his hands he held the plates which we had been praying for these to have a view of. He turned over the leaves one by one, so that we could see them, and discern the engravings thereon distinctly. He then addressed himself to David Whitmer and said, "David, blessed is the Lord, and he that keeps His commandments;"(4) when, immediately afterwards, we heard a voice from out of the bright light above us, saying,

p.55

"These plates have been revealed by the power of God, and they have been translated by the power of God. The translation of them which you have seen is correct, and I command you to bear record of what you now see and hear." (my emphasis)

[_honorentheos]

Since the 1832 account of the first vision has been linked to already, I'd also suggest conparing it to this statement in the first edition of the Morning and Evening Star, published in June 1832. In the very first article we read this account -

"For, after that it truly was manifested unto this first Elder, (my add - Joseph Smith) that he had received a remission of his sins, he was entangled again in the vanities of the world, but after truly repenting God ministered unto him by an holy angel, whose countenance was as lightning, and whose garments were pure and white above all whiteness, and gave unto him commandments which inspired him from on high, and gave unto him power, by the means which were prepared, that he should translate a Book, which Book contained a record of a fallen people, and also the fulness [fullness] of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles; and also to the Jews, proving unto them, that the holy Scriptures are true; and also, that God doth inspire men and call them to his holy work, in these last days as well as in days of old, that he might be the same God forever. Amen."

Seems similar to the 1832 first vision account. But does it tell us anything specific about the godhead? Skipping a paragraph we read -

"Wherefore, by these things we know, that there is a God in Heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting, the same unchangeable God, the maker of Heaven and earth and all things that in them is, and that he created man male and female, and after his own image, and in his own likeness created he them; and that he gave unto the children of men commandments, that they should love and serve him the only being whom they should worship, but by the transgression of these holy laws, man became sensual and devilish, and became fallen man: Wherefore the Almighty God gave his only begotten Son, as it is written in those Scriptures, which have been given of him, that he suffered temptations, but gave no heed unto them; that he was crucified, died, and rose again the third day, and that he ascended into heaven to sit down on the right hand of the Father, to reign with Almighty power, according to the will of the Father. Therefore, as many as would believe and were baptized in his holy name, and endured in faith to the end, should be saved; yea, even as many as were before he came in the flesh, from the beginning, who believed in the words of the holy Prophets, who were inspired by the gift of the Holy Ghost, which truly testified of him in all things, as well as those who should come after, who should believe in the gifts and callings of God, by the Holy Ghost, which beareth record of the Father and of the Son, which Father and Son and Holy Ghost, is one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen."

There are plenty of reasons that a person who has a modern LDS understanding can say, "This just means they are one in purpose. You just don't understand."

Just remember that at this time there the Book of Mormon was still as published and included this piece in Mosiah -

Mosiah 15: 1-5

"1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.
2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son?
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son?
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.
5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people. "

Seems to be a pattern here...

[_honorentheos]

Most MAD apologists at this point will bring up Section 76 to try and show that in 1832 Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon had a fairly contemporary LDS view of the Godhead.

I say, Great! Let's bring in the revelation that became section 76.

We read -

11 We, Joseph Smith, Jun., and Sidney Rigdon, being in the Spirit on the sixteenth day of February, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and thirty-two?
12 By the power of the Spirit our eyes were opened and our understandings were enlightened, so as to see and understand the things of God?
13 Even those things which were from the beginning before the world was, which were ordained of the Father, through his Only Begotten Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, even from the beginning;

And then -

19 And while we meditated upon these things, the Lord touched the eyes of our understandings and they were opened, and the glory of the Lord shone round about.
20 And we beheld the glory of the Son, on the right hand of the Father, and received of his fulness;
21 And saw the holy angels, and them who are sanctified before his throne, worshiping God, and the Lamb, who worship him forever and ever.
22 And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!
23 For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father?
24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.

Is there anything in this that is significantly contradictory to a Christian view of the godhead, given the language used? Was Christ, for example, literally in the Bosom of the Father? I'm sure no modern LDS thinks so. It is very biblical language. Keep this language in mind as we go further back to 1830, and consider a revelation of which it was added to and became section 20 that includes this statement -

"Wherefore, the Almighty God gave his Only Begotten Son, as it is written in those scriptures which have been given of him.
22 He suffered temptations but gave no heed unto them.
23 He was crucified, died, and rose again the third day;
24 And ascended into heaven, to sit down on the right hand of the Father, to reign with almighty power according to the will of the Father

So now the important part, which I really think is interesting since we are talking about Trinitarianism in this thread. Compare the language used to describe God the Father and Jesus Christ that Joseph Smith and SR used in the early days of the church to this -

The Apostle's Creed

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come again to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. AMEN.

Last of all, on when Joseph Smith may have made the jump to the modern LDS view, I'd like to point this out, which jumped out at me after rereading this from the June 16, 1844 revelation by Joseph Smith where he made this statement. Remember this entire discourse is on the plurality of Gods -

"I learned it by translating the papyrus now in my house---I learned a test. concerning Abraham & he reasoned concerng. the God of Heaven-- in order to do that sd. he--suppose we have two facts that supposes that anotr. fact may exist two men on the earth--one wiser than the other-- wod. show that another who is wiser than the wisest may exist-- intelligences exist one above anotr. that there is no end to it--if Abra. reasoned thus-- if J. C. was the Son of God & John discd. that God the Far. of J. C. had a far. you may suppose that he had a Far. also---where was ther ever a Son witht. a Far.---where ever did tree or any thing spring into existence witht. a progenitor-- & every thing comes in this way--Paul says that which is Earthyly is in likeness of that which is Heavenly-- hence if J. had a Far. can we not believe that he had a Fa.r also--I despise the idea of being scared to death--I want you all to pay particr. attent. J. sd. as the Far. wrought precisely in the same way as his Far. had done bef-- as the Far. had done bef--he laid down his life & took it up same as his Far. had done before--he did as he was sent to lay down his life & take it up again & was then committed unto him the keys &c I know it is good reasoning-- "

He learned it from translating the Book of Abraham?

He declared a plurality of Gods with boldness from the beginning?

Ok.

[_zeezrom]

A couple of additional points I haven't see yet.

Those are interesting points. Thank you.

I was looking at who believed in the Trinity at the time of Joseph Smith, and I'm seeing:

Catholic and Lutheran (I think that is most of 'em)

It appears the nontrinitarian sects are:

Unitarianism
Swedenborgianism

Maybe there are more during his day?

So far, it appears quite reasonable that Joseph would be influenced to believe in the Trinity. Now the question is, did Joseph Smith get an idea of 2 flesh and blood bodies from some other religion at the time or was this completely his own?

[_huckelberry]

I do not think much can be said comparing trininty and Mormon godhead with out some clarification of a basic point. What in the world is this priesthood which changes finite weak humans who die into gods who have vast power and live eternally. I am unable to see any sense in this priesthood. If if is a power how is it limited to only selected people. How is it people possess this immense power? It might make more sense if one said the priesthood was a name for the one eternal God, eternal omnipotent and creator. This creator could delegate power. But a priesthood, an impersonal power held by people by some unknowm means. this is so strange I am not sure what is being spoken of.

[_honorentheos]

Zeezrom,

I have a personal theory about Joseph Smith. That being that as a single man, he would have amounted to nil.

But as a part of a pairing, he was capable of very interesting things. I think of it as his having various "muses" in his theological evolution.

While I think we could consider various family members, as well as Emma, serving this role, it seems to be Oliver that helped inspire him in a new way, with added momentum.

Yet he also does not seem to the able to keep more than one muse at a time.

With the rise of Sidney, we see Oliver's star wane with the dividing of the church into Ohio and Missouri groups that ultimately leads to Oliver's excommunication. That's an interesting story, in my opinion.

But even Sidney's star would descend and be replaced with John C. Bennett (maybe the most fatal move on Joseph Smith's part after beginning the journey that became Mormonism). Each adds their own flavor to the religion. And in Rigdon I think we see the first separation of the Godhead into distinct Father/Son individuals (i.e. - see the Lectures on Faith which many apologists attribute to Ridgon in order to save Joseph Smith). It seems, based on my quote above, that somewhere in the Book of Abraham translation process, that the pre-Hinkley modern LDS view was developing. Perhaps then only in embryo to find full flower in Nauvoo. That latter is hard to pin-point in any documents or quotes with specific dates.

But I would feel comfortable in suggesting this simple timeline:

Oliver ( - up to around 1833-35) -> Traditional or Armenian Christian view of the Godhead
Rigdon (by 1835, maybe slightly earlier) -> Division of God the Father (as spirit) from Jesus (flesh and bone), with the Holy Ghost being an influence
Rigdon/Joseph Smith (1837-1844) - > development of modern LDS theological view of the Godhead, most likely developing as the other ideas of polygamy/sealings/temples/etc. < - (1844 Joseph Smith/ Bennet)

[_moksha]

When did the Jews go all apostate with this one God idea?

[_honorentheos]

Zee -

I should add that I was enriched to learn more about Sidney Rigdon as I left the church. It is interesting to see his early involvement in another restoration movement (Stone-Campbell) and how much he likely brought in this idea of a restoration to the Mormon movement.

As to Rigdon's views, it seems that early Campbellite beliefs were focused more on the affirmation that "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God". And beyond that, it was potentially viewed as speculation.

If Uncle Dale comes around, I'd be very interested in what information he may be able to offer on this.

[_honorentheos]

When did the Jews go all apostate with this one God idea?

Maccabees's? Or that pesky Isaiah, maybe...the first one, I mean...:) Or was it the second?

[_zeezrom]

What in the world is this priesthood which changes finite weak humans who die into gods who have vast power and live eternally.

I might be misunderstanding your question. Are you asking how we could even fathom man becoming a god? God in Mormonism is an exalted person. That is what the Father and Son are. You simply learn more and more knowledge and become more and more obedient until voila! you are a god. I recall Joseph believed Abraham was already a god (per D&C 132). Since nature tends to work on its own (i.e. evolution, erosion, plate tectonics, microbiology, etc), God just needs to answer prayers, help guys translate books, and keep an eye on things. What other powers does he need? Maybe the Mormon version of God fits well with someone leaning agnostic...?