Engaging Mormon Apologetics

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_Gadianton
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Re: Engaging Mormon Apologetics

Post by _Gadianton »

Fac3 wrote:But look how quick you are to make fun of how the people in the pool are swimming


Swimming in a pool surrounded by lifeguards; this is a pretty fair metaphor for the apologist's approach to anything intellectual. It's a fun day in the sun with no real risk, splashy splashy!

Apologist 1: "I just bought a new book on Aboriginal mythology, it's really putting some things in perspective for me I've always had questions about when reading 2nd Nephi."

Apologist 2: "And I'm reading all about medieval battles, it's amazing, anyone who's really studied the Book of Mormon already should know all this stuff."

Apologist 3: "I've bought 13 books this week, ha ha, and the critics say Mormons are ignorant and don't read books! I'm really amazed at how string theorists with each passing day show that Joseph Smith got it right on so many things, how anyone can ignore it amazes me."
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_MsJack
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Re: Engaging Mormon Apologetics

Post by _MsJack »

EAllusion wrote:There was a Catholic named David Waltz on ZLMB who endorsed the TAG. That was the only other Catholic I've ever known to do such a thing.

I believe David Waltz is no longer Catholic.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

My Blogs: Weighted Glory | Worlds Without End: A Mormon Studies Roundtable | Twitter
_huckelberry
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Re: Engaging Mormon Apologetics

Post by _huckelberry »

MsJack,

I havent seen any comment from Mr Waltz for some time. I have had many enjoyable exchanges with him in the past going back to utlm prior to zion lighthouse. That was before he became Catholic. Why would you think he is no longer Catholic? He had extensive familiarity with Calvinst lines of thought before becoming Catholic.
_MrStakhanovite
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Re: Engaging Mormon Apologetics

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

mfbukowski,

Do you see any inconsistency between these two statements?


(1) Reality exists independently of our representations of it.

(2) All representations of reality are made relative to some more or less arbitrarily selected set of concepts.


Representations: Language, Art, Science, Maps, etc, etc
_MsJack
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Re: Engaging Mormon Apologetics

Post by _MsJack »

huckelberry,

I forget who I heard it from. There are a few posts around the Internet from a Catholic guy responding to "Former Catholic Apologist David Waltz" that seem to confirm it. For example, from January 31, 2010: "Is Former Catholic Apologist David Waltz Following a Theological Trajectory That Will Ultimately End Up in Mormonism?" (Our own Chris Smith is the first comment on that thread.)

My last encounter with David was on Todd Wood's blog in March 2009, here, and it didn't go much further than polite greetings.

I do know that David has denied that he is on his way to becoming Mormon on his blog, which can be found here.

Wherever you are, David, I sincerely hope that I have not misrepresented your current religious status.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

My Blogs: Weighted Glory | Worlds Without End: A Mormon Studies Roundtable | Twitter
_huckelberry
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Re: Engaging Mormon Apologetics

Post by _huckelberry »

I find this conclusion on the latest entry from David Waltz.
"With such knowledge in place, I think the next question that needs to be asked is: if the Scriptures are “clear” on “the essentials”, why did it take so long (300+ years) to achieve “orthodoxy”?

My first reaction is what could sound more Catholic? Then I find myself chuckeling to myself as my whole Protestant thinking could look at that same question and notice its importance to follow if different path in response than the paved and guardrailed Catholic path.

I have noticed Mormons hoping David will become Mormon for some time. He has had an insightful view of the common ground between LDS and other Christian thinking. He sees Mormons as closer to trinitarian than they usually see themselves and sees a closer similarity between LDS and orthodox view of divinization as human potential.
_MrStakhanovite
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Re: Engaging Mormon Apologetics

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

EAllusion wrote:(Still, it goes against Aquinas then, doesn't it? So at least that part of my post holds up.)


Yes. Really it is just an issue of taxonomy. Here is how I divide apologetical strategies:

Evidential: This technique tries to point at some phenomena or event and posit that it is best explained by Theism via methodological naturalism's own standards. Bill Craig is the champion of this style obviously and I think it's most popular with Evangelicals because it is easy to use in evangelism. I think it developed as a response to increased Scientific literacy and popularity that is evidence driven, so this style tends to be driven by empiricism.

Existential: This strategy tries to overwhelm people with their own inability to answer big question about the meaning of life or evil. People who have studied literature in my opinion really use this to good effect. Apologists can draw on a huge pool of written works from Dostoevsky, Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, Rilke, Heidegger, Sartre, Camus, and others. Theology students who have been educated in Continental Philosophy can make good use of the category drawing on Heidegger, Karl Jaspers, and the like, if anyone can even understand what they are trying to say.

Classical: When people think of Christian Philosophy, I think most of them have this kind in mind. Basically, the Theological-driven works of Abelard, Ockham, Duns the Supreme Court, Eckhart, Aquinas in the Middle-ages and into more modern types like Descartes, Leibniz. These types tend to try and build a culminative case with Ontological, Transcendence and Teleological type arguments. Tend to be arguments begun a priori.

Presup: Related to the Classical strategy, I tend to think this is very specific tactic in starting with God and ending with God, who make it a point to create a circular argument and have absolutely no problem with that. You cannot understand anything, anywhere at anytime without presupposing the Trinitarian God.

Folk: This is the typical reasoning and argumentation from the person on the street. I put Way of the Master in this category, and the typical presentation of Pascal's Wager (note: Blaise would think most people who use his argument absolutely demonic) and the loaded questions about going to heaven and hell. Bearing a testimony and talking about miracles you've seen and how God has changed your life for the better gets lumped in here too.


Obviously, people borrow from 3 or 4 strategies at a time in presenting their entire case and very few people fit exclusively into one category. One of Bill Craig's favorite moves is that shotgun blast presentation he can give in his opening statements that draw on Classical, Existential and Evidential strategies and a person is left to scramble to counter them all.

I don't know Patrick Madrid very well, since he does more biblical based apologetics with Protestants and deals more with history, theology and hermeneutics than straight philosophy, so he probably piggy-backed like Dan on to Bill's successfully method. It's interesting because a lot of Catholic Philosophers are almost always rigid Classical-types when it comes to defending their faith. Thommist to the bone.

This gives me an idea though.......
_mfbukowski
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Re: Engaging Mormon Apologetics

Post by _mfbukowski »

MCB wrote:If you believe that without your LDS community you would have no ethical standards to live by, by all means, stay with your LDS community.


I believe no such thing, nor have I ever. I had a perfectly fine moral structure as an atheist.

I suggest you read the thread more carefully if you want to participate. Otherwise it is a waste of your time as well as everyone else's.
_Darth J
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Re: Engaging Mormon Apologetics

Post by _Darth J »

Gadianton wrote:
Fac3 wrote:But look how quick you are to make fun of how the people in the pool are swimming


Swimming in a pool surrounded by lifeguards; this is a pretty fair metaphor for the apologist's approach to anything intellectual. It's a fun day in the sun with no real risk, splashy splashy!

Apologist 1: "I just bought a new book on Aboriginal mythology, it's really putting some things in perspective for me I've always had questions about when reading 2nd Nephi."

Apologist 2: "And I'm reading all about medieval battles, it's amazing, anyone who's really studied the Book of Mormon already should know all this stuff."

Apologist 3: "I've bought 13 books this week, ha ha, and the critics say Mormons are ignorant and don't read books! I'm really amazed at how string theorists with each passing day show that Joseph Smith got it right on so many things, how anyone can ignore it amazes me."


Image
_mfbukowski
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Re: Engaging Mormon Apologetics

Post by _mfbukowski »

Gadianton wrote:
Fac3 wrote:But look how quick you are to make fun of how the people in the pool are swimming


Swimming in a pool surrounded by lifeguards; this is a pretty fair metaphor for the apologist's approach to anything intellectual. It's a fun day in the sun with no real risk, splashy splashy!

Apologist 1: "I just bought a new book on Aboriginal mythology, it's really putting some things in perspective for me I've always had questions about when reading 2nd Nephi."

Apologist 2: "And I'm reading all about medieval battles, it's amazing, anyone who's really studied the Book of Mormon already should know all this stuff."

Apologist 3: "I've bought 13 books this week, ha ha, and the critics say Mormons are ignorant and don't read books! I'm really amazed at how string theorists with each passing day show that Joseph Smith got it right on so many things, how anyone can ignore it amazes me."


Sure. Keep up your intellectual pretensions "bertrand russell" . I sense a very deep insecurity at the bottom of this.
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