Engaging Mormon Apologetics

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_Darth J
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Re: Engaging Mormon Apologetics

Post by _Darth J »

EAllusion wrote:Still, I'd love to see a court case where the defense brings up some famous problems in epistemology and concludes therefore knowledge isn't possible, and therefore we can't know the client did it. That would be awesome.


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Well, I may not know much about fancy big-city lawyerin'. I remember when as a boy, I'd go fishin' down to Pearson's Creek, and catch us a mess o' catfish that we'd fry up for supper.....ummm-hmmmm, I tell you, that was might fine eatin'.

Even though I'm jest a simple country boy, I have to wonder at these people who say the Book of Mormon is as made up as Paul Bunyan and his blue ox, Babe. Ya hear these fancy big city folks talk about how no one's ever found these Nephite cities, and there t'warn't no horses or elephants back in those days. Well, how do you know? You ever been there? You have some kind o' fancy city slicker time machine? Even an old country boy like me knows we can't know anything absolutely truly and for sure. So how can you say the Book of Mormon isn't true? Can you prove it? Can you know absolutely without a shadow of the doubt that the Book of Mormon is a made up story? Because if you can't prove it, then it's true......jest as true as Aunt Mabel's rhubarb pie.

And how do you know Joseph Smith secretly practiced polygamy? Jest because everyone who knew about it said so? Is that the same reason you think Brigham Young said that Adam was God, or that Joseph Smith said he could translate Egyptian hieroglyphics? Jest 'cause everyone said so? Imagine where we'd be if we went around believin' things jest 'cause every single person around said so. Some people say there's UFO's visiting the Earth, like that Warren Aston feller. Other people say Bigfoot's roamin' around and tellin' people he's Cain. Do you believe that jest 'cause people said so? Then why do you believe things about Joseph Smith jest because numerous witnesses said so?

And then there are those fancy city folks who think the Church has no business building a multi-billion dollar mall (no pun intended), or having all these other multi-million dollar business dealings, or tellin' other people they can't get married to someone who was born with the same kind of genitals if they want to. Who are they to tell you what to think? Do they know better? How do you know God doesn't want these things? I knew a man back in town as a boy who was a drunk, and he couldn't look in the windows walkin' down Main Street in the movie house or the soda fountain, because he was too ashamed of who he was to see his reflection. And maybe that's how it is with these folks, too. They jest don't like God, and can't face up to the fact that God's eternal judgments and Mormon cultural taboos always seem to be the same thing.

But isn't that jest like some people? When I have to represent someone in a court of law, it's nobody's business how I spend my fees. Sometimes I spend it on a new guitar to play that bluegrass on my front porch, with my hound dog Old Jasper by my side. And sometimes I just get a hankerin' for some crawfish and hush puppies. But do I have to tell some stranger on the street? No! So why should the Church have to tell people it commands to give money to it under threat of eternal damnation where the money goes?

That's about all I have to say, folks. It's not about whether you know things or whether things really happened. It's just those simple country values I learned as a boy.

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_Trevor
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Re: Engaging Mormon Apologetics

Post by _Trevor »

beastie wrote:So if the best apologetic defense to charges such as: Joseph Smith married other mens’ wives is: well, but what is reality? then that is truly a sad state of affairs.



Hmmm... that reminds me of someone:

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Last edited by Guest on Sat Jul 24, 2010 1:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_Gadianton
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Re: Engaging Mormon Apologetics

Post by _Gadianton »

I had a Bishop pull that one on me, Darth J.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_MrStakhanovite
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Re: Engaging Mormon Apologetics

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

Dean Robbers wrote:I do disagree with Dr. Stak on one matter. Though I found his explanation of the difference between an internal and an external critique important, I think he gives the author too much credit for making a "reasonable" request. Now, it's a huge stretch for me to agree at all that the fundamentalist Christian TAG which DCP apparently thoroughly embraces is worth discussing at all. Though I can imagine a hypothetical situation where one is looking for entertainment, and decides to go down this path for whatever non-serious reasons s/he has for doing so. But going from "external" critique to "internal" is what I call "turtling" and I find it a cowardly tactic in debate; it is in fact a favorite tactic of the apologists.


I agree with the esteemed Dean Robbers about the value of only seeking to do internal critique, but I think it's a useful demonstration for two reasons.

The first being, it's a chance to give some exposure to some of the contemporary debates and ideas in secular thought that doesn't get spotlighted in the great God debate.

Second, it's a bit like a mental workout. This type of Socratic method can leave people confused two ways from Sunday when they let someone walk them into contradictions. If that person happens to be on a evangelical mission, they can present the standard canned answers as factual statements instead of unexamined premises with the illusion that they are just being eminently reasonable. Here is a good example I pulled off the Triablogue:

As I was walking away from the bus stop back to our group, another young lady was reading one of our Narrow Way tracts and I walked up, introduced myself and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?" and she said, "I'm a foreign exchange student from Germany, and I can't believe that people in America actually do things like this?" I said, "Do things like what?" and she retorted, "Talk about religion." I said, "Why? Do you think is it weird to talk about God?" and she said, "In Germany, if you go to church, you're like a geek or something?" I said, "Really? So, in Germany, it's silly to believe that all of this was actually made by God? After all, where do you think the ball of dirt you're standing on came from?" and of course she said, "It evolved." I said, "So, you're an atheist huh?" and she said, "Yeah, pretty much; I think that the stuff about loving each other, and peace and stuff is really good, but I don't take the stories literally." I said, "Upon what basis do you determine that loving someone and promoting peace is the good and right thing to do when you believe that there's no objective transcendent standard to determine such things and all we are is a bunch of evolved pond scum? After all, why should you care what one bag of pond scum does to another?" She said, "We don't need some god to tell us what's right and wrong!" to which I said, "Actually, you're wrong. We do. And if you don't believe that, you're going to end up in a mass of self-contradiction and those who follow godless philosophies to their logical conclusions will end up hurting a whole lot of people in the process. That's exactly what history shows us." At this point, I wanted to ask her about her own country's preoccupation with killing Jews about 65 years ago, but she didn't let me go there because she immediately retorted, "Nobody really has the truth anyways" to which I responded, "Is that true?" and she said, "Uh, um, yes." I then said, "Ma'am, do you realize that you just contradicted yourself? You basically said that that no absolute truth exists. Then you refuted yourself by agreeing that nobody has the truth. If there is no absolute truth, then you can't make an absolute truth claim like 'nobody really has the truth anyways' because you have to affirm the very thing you just denied. You see, this is why you need God." At this point she said, "This is why I don't like talking to people about religion" to which I responded, "So, it's uncaring and unkind for me to point out when you are thinking irrationally?" At this point she hesitated and said, "Um, no" and I said, "So, it's a good thing to want people to think clearly, right?" and she said, "Yes." I said, "Well then, are you willing to give up your relativism and consider what I have to say about the gospel?" and she said, "Nope, I'm not interested in talking anymore." It just goes to show that some people would rather be irrational than bow the knee to Jesus. We shook hands and she was on her way.


So there might be some truth to what EA says here:

EAllusion wrote:But, there is a caveat here. While DCP seems to be awfully busy and above reply if you have technical knowledge of the issues in question, he does seem to have a great deal of free time to respond to people who appear ignorant and/or dunderheaded. So if for some reason you happen to come across that way at first blush, he might *ahem* find the time to get in a conversation at first.


But it's no big deal. I can get some thoughts out there, make some observations, and get corrected a few times and be happy. I'm pretty confident my thread here will largely be ignored by those who complain about the lack of creativity and substance from critics of the Church.
_MrStakhanovite
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Re: Engaging Mormon Apologetics

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

Repost from here.


Hi Darth,

Sorry it's taken some time to actually getting around to giving you a proper answer. You strike me as someone who is in limbo right now, where your recent disaffection from the LDS Church has left you with some healthy skepticism, but you seem to be unsure how far you are willing to take skepticism. I don't blame you. On the typical landscape, 'atheism' seems to be all about why God doesn't exist and why religion is st00pid.

Darth J wrote:For atheists/agnostics, did you come to that belief because of arguments against the existence of God (this would include lack of evidence), or did you just never believe in or experience "God"? I guess another way of asking this is if you are a "convert" to atheism or are you analogous to "born in the Church" with regard to atheism?


I really didn't start doubting the existence of God until I was in the military and came into the ever looming problem of existential evil. From there that kicked off my interest into religion and I eventually ended up as an atheist. Ironically, it wasn't any formal argument offered by an atheologian that tipped the scales for me. I was impressed with the arguments, but they just didn't seal the deal until I came on to something else.

Naturalism. This word get's tossed around a lot and it catches a lot of flak in popular media, but in academic philosophy, it's almost become the default position. It's really just an umbrella term for a vast number of world views and metaphysical systems that are just about as numerous as the denominations of Christianity.

It was in naturalistic philosophies that I began to find answers that blow the theologies of western religion out of the water. I read D. Z. Phillips about the nature of evil and how to try and make sense of it in a naturalistic context (while absolutely beating up on John Hick's soul making theodicy) that just added more dignity to the human condition then religion ever did for me.

Another example that left modern religion really lacking is the discussion about what exactly is meaning and what gives our life meaning. Robert Nozick has an lengthy chapter about in his book Philosophical Explanations and it really dealt a death blow to God in my opinion. Here is a sample:

Robert Nozick wrote:To experience God might leave one with the absolute conviction that his existence was the fountain of meaning, watering your own existence. I do not want to discount testimony reporting this, But even if we accepted it fully, it leaves unanswered the question of how meaning is possible. What is it about God, as usually conceived, in virtue of which he can ground meaning? How can there be a ball of meaning? Even if we are willing to treat the testimony in the way we treat accurate perceptual reports, there still remains the problem of understanding how meaning can be encountered in experience, of how there can be a stopping place for questions about meaning. How in the world (or out of it) can there be something whose nature contains meaning, something which just glows meaning?


How he answers the question itself is complex and is pretty much the culmination of 600 pages of careful argument. It's hard to explain, but these Philosophers could just cut through issues with penetrating questions in ways that the Ancients, Theologians, and hip Pastors just can't compete with. This is from Thomas Nagel at a talk he was giving to the APA in the early 70's:

Thomas Nagel wrote: What we say to convey the absurdity of our lives often has to do with space and time: we are tiny specks in the infinite vastness of the universe; our lives are mere instants even on the geological time scale; let alone of a cosmic one; we will all be dead at any minute. But of course none of these evident facts can be what makes life absurd, if it is absurd. For suppose we live forever; would not a life that is absurd if it last seventy years be infinitely absurd if it lasted all eternity? And if our lives are absurd given our present size, why would they be any less absurd if we filled the universe? Reflection on our minuteness and brevity appears to be intimately connected with a sense that life is meaningless; but it is not clear what the connection is.


On a thread over at MADB, there was a question about what was the most potent criticisms of the Church. I talked about how I think the most devastating kind come from sources who don't take particular aim at the Church, but who's ideas expose the very mind numbing thinking the Brethren pump out at a steady rate. People were amazed and outraged over this concept, but it's a solid truth in my opinion. Talks about eternal families and celestial rewards for obedience to a Prophet pale in comparison to a brief bit of prose that comes from the pen of Walter Kaufmann in his "Faith of a heretic"

Walter Kaufmann wrote: There is nothing morbid about speaking or thinking of death. Those who disparage honesty do not know its joys. The apostles of hope do not know the liberation of emergence from hope.

It may seem that a man without hope is inhuman. How can one appeal to him if he does not share our hopes? He has pulled up his stakes in the future- and the future is the common ground of humanity, Such rhetoric may sound persuasive, but Antigone* gives it the lie. Nobility holds to a purpose when hope is gone. Purpose and hope are as little identical as humility and meekness, or honesty and sincerity, Hope seeks redemption in the time to come and depends on the future. A purposive act may be it's own reward and redeem the agent, regardless of what the future may bring. Antigone is not at the mercy of any future. Humanity, love, and courage survive hope.


Naturalism (which entails atheism) has given more meaning and color to my life then anything else. It's taught me to understand my limitations, question the common assumptions in everything, and to look at life with a careful eye and a quick mind.


* Greek tragedy
_beastie
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Re: Engaging Mormon Apologetics

Post by _beastie »

Trevor wrote:
beastie wrote:So if the best apologetic defense to charges such as: Joseph Smith married other mens’ wives is: well, but what is reality? then that is truly a sad state of affairs.



Hmmm... that reminds me of someone:

Image


I feel inadequate that I haven't watched enough Simpsons to get the joke. :(
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Darth J
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Re: Engaging Mormon Apologetics

Post by _Darth J »

beastie wrote:
I feel inadequate that I haven't watched enough Simpsons to get the joke. :(


Sorry, I can only find it in Spanish:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v116UWoKKPw
_Gadianton
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Re: Engaging Mormon Apologetics

Post by _Gadianton »

Well, Dr. Stak,

I'm partial to the "internal" debates myself. I have too shoddy of a memory to argue about history.

I also call the "turtling" move "flipping the Kuhn switch" (and ejecting from the vehicle while it crashes and burns in flames). Even though DCP limits exposure to only critics in this case, the spirit of the move is the same: when the empirical evidence is damning, turn the conversation to philosophy.

I like philosophical problems, but I don't like apologists mistaking straightforward evidentiary questions for them.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_MrStakhanovite
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Re: Engaging Mormon Apologetics

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

Part 2: What is truth?

Dan wrote:...which brings us to the second type of secular objection to Mormonism: The critics' basis for criticizing Mormonism on intellectual grounds, saying that it is untrue, is unsure, and its coherence needs to be demonstrated.


In meeting Dan's challenges, I think it is more helpful to deal with truth/falsity first, before moving on to morality. I'd also like to remind everyone based on how Dan framed his criticisms in the essay, the only burden we have to meet is to show a consistent model, not one that is superior to all other models.

I propose that truth is merely the linguistic representation of how the world really is. We can model this idea like this:

s is true if and only if p


For s we put a specification of a sentence(by quotation) and for p we get the sentence itself, so:

"Darth J is a man" if and only if Darth J is a man.


This is called disquotation because the right hand side of the sentence is the same as the left but the quotes are gone. The right hand side lays out the condition that is satisfied if the left hand side is true. In jargon, these are often called, "T sentences," but we need to tweak this criterion a bit, so as to allow for subtle distinctions between indexical statements and propositions.

First we need a name for those satisfied conditions and we'll call those facts. Second, we also require a verb for all the ways a sentences relate to those facts, we'll call that correspond. So with that in mind:

For any s, s is true if and only if s corresponds to the fact that p.


Now I'd like to quote the summary of John R. Searle's summary and defense of Correspondence theory of truth from his The Construction of Social reality:

John Searle wrote:1. "True" is the adjective for assessing statements (as well as, e.g., beliefs, that like statements have the mind-to-world or word-to-world direction of fit). Statements are assessed as true when they are trustworthy, i.e., when the way they represent things as being is the way that things really are.

2. The criterion of reliability is given by disquotation. This makes it look as if "true" is redundant, but it is not. We need a meta linguistic predicate for assessing success in achieving the word-to-world direction of fit, and that term is "true"

3. The assignment of "true" to statements is not arbitrary. In general, statements are true in virtue of conditions in the world that are not parts of the statement. Statements are made true by how things are in the world that is independent of the statement. We need general terms to name these how-things-are-in-the-world, and "fact" is one such term. Others are "situation" and "state of affairs."

4. Because statements determine their own truth conditions and because the term "fact" refers to that in virtue of which statements are true, the canonical way to specify the fact is the same as the way to specify the statement, by stating it. This specification requires a whole clause; hence, both statements and facts are specified propositionally, "the fact that..." and "the statement that...," but facts are not thereby linguistic in nature.

5. Because the identity of the fact is dependent on the specific features of the fact being the same as those specified by the corresponding statement and in virtue of which the corresponding statement is true, it is false to suppose that the context "the fact that p" must preserve identity of reference under the substitution of logically equivalent sentences for p.

6. What about the substitution of coreferring expressions? In some cases, substitution of coreferring expressions can preserve identity of fact. Because Tully was identical with Cicero, then intuitively, the fact that Tully was an orator is the very same fact as the fact that Cicero was an orator. Why? Because exactly the same state of affairs in the world makes each statement true, and "fact" is defined as that which makes a statement true.

But in general, substitution of coreferring definite descriptions does not yield reference to the same fact. Intuitively, the fact that Tully was an orator is a different fact from the fact that the man who denounced Catiline was an orator. Why? Because the latter fact requires that someone have denounced Catiline for it's existence, and the existence of the former fact has no such requirement.

7. Facts are not the same as true statements. There are several ways to demonstrate this. Here are two. First it makes sense to speak of facts functioning casually in a way it does not make sense to speak of true statements functioning causally. Second, the relation of a fact to statements is on-many since the same fact may be stated by different statements. For example, the same fact is stated by "Cicero was an orator" and "Tully was an orator."

8. Wherever there is disquotation there are also alternative ways of describing or specifying the facts. Thus the true statement "Sally is the sister of Sam" corresponds to the fact that Sally is the sister of Sam, but there are further things to be said, e.g., that Sally is female, and that Sally and Sam have the same father and mother. Many philosophical disputes are about the structure of facts, and in general these issues go far beyond dispuotation. For example, the philosophical disputes about color, and other secondary qualities, are about the nature of the facts that correspond to such claims as that this object is red, and the analysis of such facts require more than disquotation.


So there it is. Let's take a look at the rest of his comment on this:

Dan wrote:However, on a completely secularist, naturalistic view, it seems that "thoughts" are really merely neurochemical events in the brain, able (in principle, at least) to be described by the laws of physics. But the laws of physics are deterministic...


He's conflating Naturalism with Physicalism this time. but taking EA's observations in to account, I'll let it be. It still annoys me that he'd demand his opponents to know his faith and religion better if they kept making simple categorical mistakes.

Dan wrote:...such that, if "thoughts" are merely physical, it is unclear how we can really say that a conclusion follows from premises. Why? Because any given brain state seems to be causally determined by the preceding brain state. And it is hard, moreover, to see how the neurochemical condition of the brain can have a relationship of either truth or falsity with the atmosphere of a distant planet—or, for that matter, with anything else. A lump of cells is neither true nor false. It is not "about" anything else. It just is.


What ever point Dan was trying to drive home here, really loses its force by lack of explanation. How can a purely physical and completely material brain not have a relationship with truth or falsity but a brain with non-physical and indeterministic features have that relationship? What is preventing a conscious that is purely physical from distinguishing true state of affairs from false state of affairs?
_MrStakhanovite
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Re: Engaging Mormon Apologetics

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

Part 2.1: Ugh...

Dan wrote: Thus, truly consistent secularist critics of Mormonism may have sawed off the limb on which they were sitting. They may have deprived themselves not only of a standard of moral judgment that cannot be dismissed as merely subjective, but of a coherent claim to be able to address questions of truth and falsity (with respect to Mormonism and every other topic). Some form of theism, or, at least, of nonnaturalism, may be required to save their position from being merely self-refuting.


This made me cringe. Not because I think Dan has made good points or even bad points, it's just hard not to read these types of passages that simply ooze with pretentiousness.

One of the biggest mistakes people can make is that their religion or philosophy is beyond reproach. While Dan may have some justification for wanting to see by what methods and systems those who would judge his Church to be false use, he doesn't get to glibly dismiss all criticisms until otherwise. It just doesn't work like that.

Liars can still tell the truth, cheaters can still be honest, and rude people can still be considerate. Just because you can't conceive of a Naturalistic meta-ethic, doesn't mean ethical criticisms from a Naturalist is now invalid.
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