Did Dallin Oaks ever retract this or explain it?

[_Nevo]

Did Elder Oaks ever claim he had the ability to "see into the hearts of men and detect the deceptions and dishonesty therein"? That surely would have come in handy when he was a judge. He wouldn't even need to hear evidence. He could just look at the defendant and determine guilt or innocence right on the spot.

Anyway, I see nothing incorrect or needing retracting in Elder Oaks's remarks. Hofmann's forgeries were successful because they were plausible. The angel Moroni could be described as a salamander from within a magical world view. Hofmann knew that, and LDS scholars knew that. FARMS was entirely correct that the salamander "has a millennia-long history as a symbol of divine and elemental power." This was hardly a "blunder."

(Michael Quinn, by the way, apparently still believes that Joseph Smith encountered Moroni at Cumorah as a salamander: "there is no reason to doubt that Joseph Sr. and Jr. reported the presence of a living amphibian when the young man looked into a newly opened hole on the hill"; "Due to the magic world view that demonstrably influenced the Smith family, it is more likely that the toad-like creature described by neighbors was their version of Smith's reference to a salamander. In fact, the messenger's name Moroni was associated with ritual magic and the salamander..." See D. Michael Quinn, Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, rev. and enl. ed. [Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1998], 151, 155.)

[_bcspace]

"Cromulent", indeed. All this really shows is that Mormon apostles are totally devoid of "revelation" and rely on "scholars" to defend the church. Why did Dallin go to FARMS, and not the "holy ghost"?

Answer: He trusts in FARMS more than the "holy ghost".

You don't seem to understand how the Holy Ghost operates. But in any case, this notion wasn't even implied in the OP. It was about the use and definition of the word salamander.

[_Polygamy-Porter]

"Cromulent", indeed. All this really shows is that Mormon apostles are totally devoid of "revelation" and rely on "scholars" to defend the church. Why did Dallin go to FARMS, and not the "holy ghost"?

Answer: He trusts in FARMS more than the "holy ghost".

You don't seem to understand how the Holy Ghost operates. But in any case, this notion wasn't even implied in the OP. It was about the use and definition of the word salamander.

Oh I know how Casper the Holy Ghost® works... When you pray you only get boolean answers, yes, no, unsure.. not like striking up a conversation with the old HG!

It would go something like:
ME: Yo, HG, why were the apostles fooled by the salamander letter?
HG: NO
ME: What?
HG: YES
ME: HUH Say again?
HG: NO
ME: You stupid ghost, I have a question for you, you brainless little twit
HG: YES
ME: You know what Casper, if you had a body, I'd kick your ass right here, right now!
HG: YES
ME: Count your blessing ghost boy, you are lucky you don't have a body cuz you know it would have an ass for me to kick. You couldn't handle a body!!!

[_Ray A]

FARMS was entirely correct that the salamander "has a millennia-long history as a symbol of divine and elemental power." This was hardly a "blunder."

Technicalities. You’re missing the point, Nevo. Whether salamanders had “power” isn’t the point. They, FARMS, were trying to justify the idea that a salamander was as good as the HG, and the bottom line is that they were offering a defence of a fraudulent text, and to quote the Book of Mormon, “knew it not”. They were trying to justify FALSE documents. I really like you, Nevo, but sometimes you seem so captive to an inane brand of bunkum apologetics.

This FARMS piece has been rightly ridiculed by both sincere defenders, and anyone who has eyes to see that what is far more important to these snake-oil merchants is not truth – but defending their beloved Mormonism.

If there ever was a case of grasping at Guy Fawkes straws - this is it.

[_beefcalf]

http://www.lightplanet.com/Mormons/basi ... nment.html

The Prophet of God and his Apostles have the gift of discernment... except when they don't.

[_bcspace]

You don't seem to understand how the Holy Ghost operates. But in any case, this notion wasn't even implied in the OP. It was about the use and definition of the word salamander.

Oh I know how Casper the Holy Ghost® works... When you pray you only get boolean answers, yes, no, unsure.. not like striking up a conversation with the old HG!

Actually, if you knew the scriptures on the subject, you know, the ones LDS try to follow, one studies it out first which is exactly what it seems the Church was doing.........

[_Ray A]

Actually, if you knew the scriptures on the subject, you know, the ones LDS try to follow, one studies it out first which is exactly what it seems the Church was doing.........

And the fraud was finally uncovered by the anti-Mormons Jerald and Sandra Tanner.

I guess they "studied it out in their minds". Huh?

[_why me]

Did Elder Oaks ever claim he had the ability to "see into the hearts of men and detect the deceptions and dishonesty therein"? That surely would have come in handy when he was a judge. He wouldn't even need to hear evidence. He could just look at the defendant and determine guilt or innocence right on the spot.

Anyway, I see nothing incorrect or needing retracting in Elder Oaks's remarks. Hofmann's forgeries were successful because they were plausible. The angel Moroni could be described as a salamander from within a magical world view. Hofmann knew that, and LDS scholars knew that. FARMS was entirely correct that the salamander "has a millennia-long history as a symbol of divine and elemental power." This was hardly a "blunder."

Dear Nevo,

I regret to inform you that your intelligence in the above post will be overlooked by the critics who wish to find a negative.

Sincerely yours,

Why Me.

[_Ray A]

Dear Nevo,

I regret to inform you that your intelligence in the above post will be overlooked by the critics who wish to find a negative.

Sincerely yours,

Why Me.

Dear why me,

I regret to inform you that your brain was recently recycled in a Catholic rubbish dump, and when they discovered it floating among the flotsam and jetsam of indecision, then decided it could be better put towards such research purposes as: Why for the life of me does someone criticise Catholicism while defending Mormonism while claiming to be a Catholic?

The answer is really simple. Why me is a hypocrite of the highest order. He defends the religion he would like to live, but cannot live, so he “claims” to be a Catholic, so as to reduce the hypocrisy. But all along his pseudo-Catholic façade reveals why me for what he really is: A total, dishonest, deceiver. A hypocrite of the highest order. A gutless wimp and a religious tampon-sniffer.

You, my friend, deserve no respect. If you really believe Mormonism – then for "F"s sake live it! Not one foot in Catholicism, and another in Mormonism. Get off your habit-fastened ass and, for once – live what you preach.

Someone needs to tell you this – You reek of hypocrisy.

[_Joseph]

Moroni 10:5 Apparently diddlinDallin doesn't ask for guidance before opening his piehole and pontificating on 'things of the Spirit' to the saints.

Apparently no one in LDSinc leadership did.

Jerald Tanner of Utah Lighthouse Ministry was the only one we know who doubted Mark Hoffmans find.

Something is backwards here with the cast of characters, isn't it?