The religious experience vs. the experience of reality

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_MrStakhanovite
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Re: The religious experience vs. the experience of reality

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

TAO wrote:Pleasant indeed, that it is.


That's excellent because, as God knows, Runtu is one of the more vicious posters here.*



*- That was sarcastic. You've dealt with Paulie O. and Darth Jazzy Jay in a unrestricted chat, and neither of them ruffled your feathers and the Terrestrial forum is a Disney movie compared to that. I don't think you need training wheels, but some disagree.

Oh well.
_Jersey Girl
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Re: The religious experience vs. the experience of reality

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Jersey Girl
What I don't see you addressing, TAO, is human bonding and attachment. [/quote

TAO
This service is the ultimate form of attachment, I believe.

But if you mean something else... which you might... could you articulate on what you mean?




I will try.

As I indicated in a previous post to Runtu, I wanted to ultimately discuss bonding and attachment as it relates to human survival. You see, in your earlier post you stated that you think that the purpose of sexual relationships is procreation. Baby makin'. :-) And while I tend to agree with that, I think there is another step in that process that you aren't addressing or maybe you are and I'm not "listening" to you closely enough.

Let me begin, possibly, at the beginning.

When a newborn baby interacts with a primary caregiver (let's make it a mother for the sake of simplicity) the baby and mother engage in what can best be described as an "exchange". An example, the baby cries, mother responds with food/comfort/verbal expression. The baby learns that when it cries, it will consistently draw a response from it's mother. These primary circular reactions are the basis for the survival of the baby.

Not only does the baby need a response that brings physical nourishment, it needs (for lack of a better way to describe it) a "reason to live". The reason to live is based on the response the baby gets from the mother.

Let me show you the opposite of what I'm talking about to demonstrate what happens to a baby who is deprived of responses. The best example that I can easily put my hands on (identify) right now are the Baby Houses in Russia.

The Baby Houses in Russia are notorius for low caregiver:child ratios. That is to say, there are too many babies and not enough people to take care of them. The babies are often left in groups that are confined to their cribs. Their bottles might be propped (baby not held when feeding), diapers changed when caregivers get around to it, they are not held/rocked/talked to and essentially neglected in every way, and deprived of human interaction.

In some cases, the baby suffers from "failure to thrive" which follows a certain course such as, the baby cries, no one answers. When no one answers the baby learns not to cry to signal when it is hungry because it hasn't learned that a response will follow. Some of the babies begin to self stimulate by rocking their bodies or banging their heads against the crib sides. So strong is the human need to know that one exists that the baby will bang its own head against an inanimate object to feel itself in reference to someone or something else. This is perhaps the last in a series of attempts that the baby will make on behalf of it's own survival, and then the baby begins to shut down. It goes silent because its cries have illicited no response. It either dies because it stops seeking food or it grows to be a malnourished older child whose psyche has also been malnourished because it has lacked the human response that makes it possible for the child to develop into a "whole" human being.


(Let me stop here and say that my screen is jumping around and driving me crazy. If the comments above seem disrupted, it's because of the screen jumping!)


The child who suffers from attachment disorders (attachment to a primary caregiver being the first form of human attachment) is the child who is destructive to itself and others. The healthy relationship model that should have been learned shortly after birth was completely absent from the child's experience. This is not a child who will thrive in relationships or in life. It has no reason to set goals and succeed in achieving them. It views other human beings as "things" and lives a life guided by sociopathy.

Let me continue in another new post..this jumping around is intolerable!
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Jersey Girl
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Re: The religious experience vs. the experience of reality

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Trying to complete my thoughts here, not doing such a good job of it! :-)

Bonding/attachment...

Back to the child. When the bonding and attachment process fails to take place, the baby (unless intervention takes place) is on it's way to sociopathy. A human being who is interested only in immediate gratification and often at the expense of others. That is to say, a person who is functioning in a reptilian brain sort of way. :-)

Compare that to the baby who was not deprived of those first and consistent interactions that led to it's ultimate survival and created a bond with the mother. The significance of the bond with the mother is two-fold. It is critical to the infant's survival and secondly, it is the basis for the healthy attachments the baby will have as it grows up, develops and goes through life.

And out in the world, where it eventually comes in contact with someone it's attracted to.

I see a physical attraction as the first step in human relationships that lead to an emotional attachment (love) then expressions of sexual intimacy and ulitmately (for the sake of this discussion) to procreation and survival of the human race as it were.

What I am trying to say and clumsily so, TAO, is that our success and survival as human beings is dependent on relationships and that those relationships are dependent on our ability to attach and bond emotionally and psychologically.

The sexual piece is an expression of both emotional and psychological attachment that leads to procreation. In the case where a couple is not able to procreate (due to infertility) the value of the sexual relationship remains that of increased bonding and attachment.

Unless of course, it's a casual encounter, in which case you can take my two posts and throw them out the window!

:-)
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Jersey Girl
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Re: The religious experience vs. the experience of reality

Post by _Jersey Girl »

MrStakhanovite wrote:
TAO wrote:Pleasant indeed, that it is.


That's excellent because, as God knows, Runtu is one of the more vicious posters here.*



*- That was sarcastic. You've dealt with Paulie O. and Darth Jazzy Jay in a unrestricted chat, and neither of them ruffled your feathers and the Terrestrial forum is a Disney movie compared to that. I don't think you need training wheels, but some disagree.

Oh well.


Whoever thinks that TAO needs "training wheels" is far off the mark. TAO, in my view, is one of the very few posters on this board capable of intellectual honesty without an underlying need to mock others for their own amusement.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Jersey Girl
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Re: The religious experience vs. the experience of reality

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Ack, I better qualify what I stated regarding the Russian Baby Houses by saying that the conditions that I described existed perhaps 10 or more years ago. I used them to illustrate the plight and outcomes of infants deprived of human contact and interaction. I believe that conditions have improved in years following.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_TAO
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Re: The religious experience vs. the experience of reality

Post by _TAO »

MrStakhanovite wrote:
TAO wrote:Pleasant indeed, that it is.


That's excellent because, as God knows, Runtu is one of the more vicious posters here.*

*- That was sarcastic. You've dealt with Paulie O. and Darth Jazzy Jay in a unrestricted chat, and neither of them ruffled your feathers and the Terrestrial forum is a Disney movie compared to that. I don't think you need training wheels, but some disagree.

Oh well.


*prepares singing voice*

Stan...

One of things people don't realize about me,
Is that what blocks them I walk through with ease.
And what for them might seem easy to conquer,
For me is a fatal increase.

What seems backwards for me is much forwards.
What seems straight for you is reverse.
Those posters that ardently bug you,
Are for me really easy converse.

-----

There I did some singing for you =D. I hope it made you a bit more cheerful, that I do.

My rhyming scheme is not perfect... but eh, I hope you enjoyed it.
_TAO
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Re: The religious experience vs. the experience of reality

Post by _TAO »

Jersey Girl wrote:I will try.


Okey dokey *puts on quiet but thoughtful cap*

As I indicated in a previous post to Runtu, I wanted to ultimately discuss bonding and attachment as it relates to human survival. You see, in your earlier post you stated that you think that the purpose of sexual relationships is procreation. Baby makin'. :-) And while I tend to agree with that, I think there is another step in that process that you aren't addressing or maybe you are and I'm not "listening" to you closely enough.


You have me curious.

Let me begin, possibly, at the beginning.

When a newborn baby interacts with a primary caregiver (let's make it a mother for the sake of simplicity) the baby and mother engage in what can best be described as an "exchange". An example, the baby cries, mother responds with food/comfort/verbal expression. The baby learns that when it cries, it will consistently draw a response from it's mother. These primary circular reactions are the basis for the survival of the baby.


And this process is also repeated in the mother on a non-conscious scale believe it or not. That's why mom's can sometimes hear cries of small children you wouldn't expect them to. But they can rarely hear children other than their own.

Not only does the baby need a response that brings physical nourishment, it needs (for lack of a better way to describe it) a "reason to live". The reason to live is based on the response the baby gets from the mother.


Mmm.... I don't quite understand, but let me read on and see if I can get what's going on.

Let me show you the opposite of what I'm talking about to demonstrate what happens to a baby who is deprived of responses. The best example that I can easily put my hands on (identify) right now are the Baby Houses in Russia.

The Baby Houses in Russia are notorius for low caregiver:child ratios. That is to say, there are too many babies and not enough people to take care of them. The babies are often left in groups that are confined to their cribs. Their bottles might be propped (baby not held when feeding), diapers changed when caregivers get around to it, they are not held/rocked/talked to and essentially neglected in every way, and deprived of human interaction.


The reason this is a negative effect on the baby is because it essentially 'isolates them' from humanity, from social relationships, that it is.

Actually, if you want to know, this is one of the dangers of Autism as well. We don't understand other people without being taught the special technique, and so we slowly devolve and become 'hermits' of sorts. Not concerned about others' feelings because we don't understand them, and don't feel a need to concern ourselves with them. Teaching how to read body language/verbal inflections solves this though.

In some cases, the baby suffers from "failure to thrive" which follows a certain course such as, the baby cries, no one answers. When no one answers the baby learns not to cry to signal when it is hungry because it hasn't learned that a response will follow. Some of the babies begin to self stimulate by rocking their bodies or banging their heads against the crib sides. So strong is the human need to know that one exists that the baby will bang its own head against an inanimate object to feel itself in reference to someone or something else. This is perhaps the last in a series of attempts that the baby will make on behalf of it's own survival, and then the baby begins to shut down. It goes silent because its cries have illicited no response. It either dies because it stops seeking food or it grows to be a malnourished older child whose psyche has also been malnourished because it has lacked the human response that makes it possible for the child to develop into a "whole" human being.


Yes, if they die, it's because of malnourishment. But the second, isn't because of a malnourished mind - it's because there are no bonds to society whatsoever. No bonds to other people whatsoever. It is a very dangerous state of mind.

What's interesting, is if you can manage to teach a person like this to open up, he will have bonds with everyone. The exact opposite the way he was. Of course, doing so is difficult.

The child who suffers from attachment disorders (attachment to a primary caregiver being the first form of human attachment) is the child who is destructive to itself and others.


The reason being because of a lack of human bonds. I was like that for a while... even limited human bonds can be very dangerous. Because of that reason... destruction to self and others. I didn't hurt any others at that time period... but I felt very little reason to live. There wasn't anything worth living for. Tough times, back then.

Of course, the reverse, as said, turns the person into something remarkable. It turns them into a near opposite of what they were. It is the approach that should be taken, for it contains many good things.

The healthy relationship model that should have been learned shortly after birth was completely absent from the child's experience. This is not a child who will thrive in relationships or in life. It has no reason to set goals and succeed in achieving them. It views other human beings as "things" and lives a life guided by sociopathy.


As said, then it becomes up to someone who helps, or up to the child themselves. There will be some children who turn themselves around. But there will be others who have to take someone else. But if someone else does it, that person will become their mother; their trust.

Although I don't tend to offend with this comment - part of the reason I disagree with atheism so much is because it too can lead to these sort of thoughts in a certain way. It is one of the bases of them. As said, I'd prefer people didn't get offended with this statement though.
_TAO
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Re: The religious experience vs. the experience of reality

Post by _TAO »

Jersey Girl wrote:Trying to complete my thoughts here, not doing such a good job of it! :-)


It's ok, I'm on track now.

Bonding/attachment...

Back to the child. When the bonding and attachment process fails to take place, the baby (unless intervention takes place) is on it's way to sociopathy. A human being who is interested only in immediate gratification and often at the expense of others. That is to say, a person who is functioning in a reptilian brain sort of way. :-)


One of the things that develops at this same time though, however, is a sense of kindness as well. Your brain is like "hmmmm... someone doing 'nice' things to me.... I wonder what would happen if I did 'nice' things?....". Because this happens pretty much at the first moment a kind thing is received (why we don't notice this is because the babies still have to explore what the 'adult' considers nice), the brain doesn't actually become so reptilian. It becomes more kind and compassionate and helpful.

Compare that to the baby who was not deprived of those first and consistent interactions that led to it's ultimate survival and created a bond with the mother. The significance of the bond with the mother is two-fold. It is critical to the infant's survival and secondly, it is the basis for the healthy attachments the baby will have as it grows up, develops and goes through life.


What happens with that baby is one of two things. Either A) It loses desire to live (in the case of babies that are born with strong instinctual compassion), or B) It's desires become self-gratification. If the baby isn't linked socially to anybody during it's life, this is one of the two paths it will take till someone links to it.

This doesn't mean there is no hope though - all people have an internal desire (though it will be very mellowed and have to be weaseled out with those bent on self-gratification) to be cared about. If you can use this to your advantage, you can take this person out of this dismal state, and turn them into a much more positive person. In fact, these people will often be 'ridiculously positive' in others words (is there such a thing).

And out in the world, where it eventually comes in contact with someone it's attracted to.


There is two instinctual forces so to say. The first is a desire to be cared about. The second is a desire for self-gratification. They conflict with each other. When someone with the latter comes into this case... he is ruthless so to say.

I see a physical attraction as the first step in human relationships that lead to an emotional attachment (love) then expressions of sexual intimacy and ulitmately (for the sake of this discussion) to procreation and survival of the human race as it were.


When a person who has little reason to live runs into a person who he can get attached to, the result is that he found what he was looking for, and obtains a desire to interact somewhat with society. Kinda like I am. The result of a person desiring self-gratification is a deceptive person who acts like others do to get what he wants. Which is not pretty to talk about.

What I am trying to say and clumsily so, TAO, is that our success and survival as human beings is dependent on relationships and that those relationships are dependent on our ability to attach and bond emotionally and psychologically.


Jersey Girl, I think in absolutes. To not do so for me is... hypocritical in a way. To me, you can either view things for the desire to be cared about, and to care about others, or from the desire to take control of others. Other people may view it in a bit of both, but I can't do that; I have made a decision not to. It makes you too much of a chess piece.

The sexual piece is an expression of both emotional and psychological attachment that leads to procreation. In the case where a couple is not able to procreate (due to infertility) the value of the sexual relationship remains that of increased bonding and attachment.


Not psychological actually - more like desireful. I view that part of the activity as corrupting the former. That's why I reject it, in preference of purely based on the emotional. Others may use it together, but I view that as combining two opposites - the want to care about others, and the want to control others. To me they are permanently separated.

Unless of course, it's a casual encounter, in which case you can take my two posts and throw them out the window!

:-)


Most relationships start with a casual encounter, that they do. But something drives the people back to each other. I hope it be the former, not the latter.
_TAO
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Re: The religious experience vs. the experience of reality

Post by _TAO »

Jersey Girl wrote:Ack, I better qualify what I stated regarding the Russian Baby Houses by saying that the conditions that I described existed perhaps 10 or more years ago. I used them to illustrate the plight and outcomes of infants deprived of human contact and interaction. I believe that conditions have improved in years following.


That is good that it has improved, that it is.
_EAllusion
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Re: The religious experience vs. the experience of reality

Post by _EAllusion »

Who knows what this thread is about now.

Mfb -

For bevity's sake, I had in mind something like Evan Fale's concept of "cross-checking."

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... tical.html

I also didn't have in mind an experience like a burning of the bosom. I regard that rather simply as a bad inference. A terrible one really, like someone telling me that deja vu is caused by invisible underpants gnomes that live in my closet. I instead had in mind religious experiences like hearing the whispers of God, transcendent oneness coupled with a sense of profundity, and so on.
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