My initial feelings about apostates and doubters

[_zeezrom]

I don't have time to give this topic adequate commentary but I feel something must be said. When I first joined this board, I was a total newbie to online religious discussions. I had joined MAD around the same time. I posted similar introductory statements on both boards to see how they both reacted to my questions. I think it is important for people to know how I felt about people at MDB once I realized most people here were not your typical TBM. At the very beginning, Uncle Dale pointed out to me that most people here don't believe or are barely hanging on (he mentioned Jason Bourne as an example). The thought of this scared me.

I felt like people here were a shade darker than other people I associated with (sorry). I was literally scared of Paul O. When he would say something negative about Boyd K or Thomas Monson, it would make me feel bad for reading his words. I recall skipping his posts when I would see his avatar. But later, I came to understand where he was coming from and it didn't scare me anymore.

I even found myself avoiding discussions about S/R between Dana, UD, Roger and others because I felt there was something not quite right about all that. I felt guilty for seeing what they had to say. I intentionally avoided threads criticizing the Book of Mormon for a long time. I recall setting up a plan to only discuss polygamy because that is where I had the problems. One day, a poster at MAD (SilverKnight) informed me that this board was to be avoided and the people (the things said) here are like poison. But this is interesting because by the time I received Silverknight's warning, I had already begun to see that the people over here were just as moral and good as anyone else I knew. Sometimes I wonder if this is really what changed me. Could it be that by discovering that all people are on equal ground made me feel okay with letting Mormonism go? Was it that I could see how good moral people are able to see the church is a fraud? I can't put my finger on any single event or any single comment made that changed me. It was a combination of a lot of things. But realizing that apostates aren't really evil truly had some impact on me.

It is also interesting how I started to see how some defenders of the faith were kind of rude. I realized that religion had very little to do with how kind a person is. That likely had a huge impact on me.

Now I can see why some siblings have reacted the way they have when they hear the news about me. It is exactly the same way I would have reacted to them if they apostatized while I was TBM.

It is amazing how a single religious belief can make a person look and feel so differently to others. It confirms to me that the mind (and the ideas held therein) is a powerful thing.

(by the way - I expect some people to say I lost the spirit and am now beyond feeling, blah, blah, blah)

[_Wisdom Seeker]

I think Paul O would be disappointed that at least he was not considered a little bit evil.

[_asbestosman]

You lost the spirit and are now beyond feeling, blah, blah, blah.

It is amazing how a single religious belief can make a person look and feel so differently to others.

It's more than that. When that belief is foundational, many other beliefs often come crumbling down with it. When people lose the faith, they often change many other beliefs because they no longer feel they come from God. If you don't believe the doctrines of the church were given from God through His chosen servants, then you're less likely to think it's necessary to abstain from alcohol. You're more likely to think homosexual marriage is fine. You're more likely to think there's nothing wrong with the old-fashioned number one pass-time of teenage boys. You're more likely to think polygamy was the result of lust instead of a divine commandment. You're more likely to think it's okay to steal, rape, and murder. Just kidding about that last one.

[_zeezrom]

You lost the spirit and are now beyond feeling, blah, blah, blah.

It is amazing how a single religious belief can make a person look and feel so differently to others.

It's more than that. When that belief is foundational, many other beliefs often come crumbling down with it. When people lose the faith, they often change many other beliefs because they no longer feel they come from God. If you don't believe the doctrines of the church were given from God through His chosen servants, then you're less likely to think it's necessary to abstain from alcohol. You're more likely to think homosexual marriage is fine. You're more likely to think there's nothing wrong with the old-fashioned number one pass-time of teenage boys.

Hey Mr. Asbestos,

Yeah things change. But what do you think about the dirty feel non-believers have? Maybe you weren't as judgmental as I was. I truly felt apostates were dirty in some way - not to be touched.

[_asbestosman]

Yeah things change. But what do you think about the dirty feel non-believers have? Maybe you weren't as judgmental as I was. I truly felt apostates were dirty in some way - not to be touched.

There's a bit of a mixed way of looking at them. On the one hand they are viewed as traitors. On the other hand, they are viewed as people to help return to the fold. Again, on the one hand we know there's no good reason to leave the church, so we tend to assume that the reason is something like sin or being offended. On the other hand, we need to realize that we are subject to the same forces to pull us away and may not be any better than them--that perhaps they will return or that God will judge them differently because of circumstances we do not understand.

My family gets along just fine with my aunt who does not believe any more. Sure, sometimes she may bring up stuff from the Tanners or whatnot. However, the family gets along just fine as far as I can tell and don't think of her as dirty. For the most part, she does not bring up criticism of the church and as long as she does not, it's worthwhile to consider her as family.

However, when someone recently falls away, there's a fear that the person is under the influence of Satan and will hurt others spiritually or perhaps even physically if they are addicted to pornography (not that believers don't get addicted too).

Ultimately I think people are fine hanging around former Mormons so long as the former Mormon does not try to mock or destroy the faith of others and does not break commandments in your presence.

[Bedlamite]

...I truly felt apostates were dirty in some way - not to be touched.

Yeah, I grew up on the receiving end of that LDS shunning of 'postates.
I'm certain that some of our Mormon neighbors told their kids not to
get near our non-Brighamite family, for fear of catching our "disease."

Sometimes the shunning was overt and vocal --> "RLDS are sons of
perdition, for refusing doctrine they know is true." But often it was
more subtle -- like the fourth-grade classmate who refused to hold
my hand in a hand-holding circle around the visiting story-teller.

I promise to take all of my Spalding-Rigdon books off the shelves and
give them a hot, healthy bath in soap and water, if that will help ease
the "dirty" image resident in the minds of our LDS critics...

UD

[_Redefined]

Who could blame you, at the time you joined Paul O probably was still using that ultra-frightening darth sidious avatar. So, to a Mormon, his posts must have looked absolutely seething with evil!

I know where you are coming from though, I think when I realized that "those" people were no different then me, or I was no better than them for being Mormon, my walls came down and I didn't have to be judgemental or self-righteous anymore. Very liberating.

See my signature link. . . "this one".

[_MCB]

I came from the other direction. I initially hysterically ignored anything Mormon-related, to the point of having a panic attack whenever anything close to it was brought up. After a brief stay at the MAD-board, I changed from a pious attempt to try to talk some sense into them, to very angry at LDS people. Ex-mormon.org became my favored place. I then moved on to the comfort of CAF, despite the wild and wolly times they were having. As I began to understand that, despite LDS hatred, I must moderate my approach, I moved to this board, where there is more objective and academic discussion. I continue to mellow out.

Nowadays, I rarely go to the MAD-board, usually only lurk at exmormon, and only step in when a newbie without much information begins debating with the perpetual Mo-mishes at CAF.

[_Rambo]

Zee, I am with you on a lot of these points. At first when I read Paul O posts I couldn't believe the things he was saying. I also remember seeing Runtu's thread saying "Why does everyone get so upset when I call Joseph Smith an adulter?" I was shocked and upset when I read the title of that thread. What was even more upsetting was the evidence he had in there from friendly first hand witnesses.

Before I came to this board I thought apostates were angry and bitter at the church because they had some huge sin and this was just an excuse for them. I also thought everything they were saying was anti-mormon lies. It was crazy to find out that they were truths and that most apostates seemed like regular people that are overall pretty nice.

Now when I read Paul O's or Polygamy Porters post they just give me a good laugh and they have been insightful too.

[_MCB]

Now when I read Paul O's or Polygamy Porters post they just give me a good laugh and they have been insightful too.

And Joseph's. Although he does appear to have some inside information that he cannot discuss.