LDS or Nothing?

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_cafe crema
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Re: LDS or Nothing?

Post by _cafe crema »

zeezrom wrote:Surely the Catholic church does not accept the Muslim's faith as adequate to get back to the presence of God?


In a word, yes, from the catechism:
The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
_Runtu
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Re: LDS or Nothing?

Post by _Runtu »

cafe crema wrote:In a word, yes, from the catechism:


Thanks for that. I did not know that about Catholics, having been fed the line from early on that they believe everyone not baptized goes to hell.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_cafe crema
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Re: LDS or Nothing?

Post by _cafe crema »

Runtu wrote:
cafe crema wrote:In a word, yes, from the catechism:


Thanks for that. I did not know that about Catholics, having been fed the line from early on that they believe everyone not baptized goes to hell.


Well what do you know, the LDS on CAF insist that other religions' beliefs are never discussed in various LDS meetings.
_Runtu
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Re: LDS or Nothing?

Post by _Runtu »

cafe crema wrote:Well what do you know, the LDS on CAF insist that other religions' beliefs are never discussed in various LDS meetings.


Every time the infant baptism section in Moroni is discussed in church, Catholicism comes up. Whoever says Mormons don't talk about other religions' beliefs in meetings is lying.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_zeezrom
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Re: LDS or Nothing?

Post by _zeezrom »

I fear I have been given the wrong idea about what Catholics believe on many issues.
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

The Holy Sacrament.
_Jason Bourne
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Re: LDS or Nothing?

Post by _Jason Bourne »

Aristotle Smith wrote:
I would have an easier time believing this if I saw lots of critical thinking done by Mormons of other belief systems.


Are you saying you do not believe me?

The pattern I have usually seen it that most people spend months agonizing over the doctrine and history of the Mormon church before they finally conclude that's it's not true. They then spend a few days or maybe a week or two looking into other faiths and then decide it's not for them. The differences in time makes me think that the thought processes behind the two decisions are not the same.


After I came to the conclusion that the LDS Church was not what it claimed I starting reading a number of web sites that were more critical of Christianity, reading up on evolutions, read a little bit by Dawkins and Harris. Then I really got into Bart Ehrman. I have read three or four of his books. These troubled me. Then a friend referred me to The Case for Christ and Josh McDowell's Evidence Demands a Verdict. Those books did not resonate. They seemed much to much like the LDS apologetic I had read and participated in. I found my faith in everything crumbling. So I stopped reading anything about this and have just maintained my faith where I am.

The answer most people have is that they spent so much time investigating Mormonism that they can smell BS a mile away now, which they then easily do when investigating other faiths. I find those types of responses very arrogant and almost always uninformed.


I am surprised that you asses me this way. We have dialogued some about this in the past. If you read my full post I mentioned that I wanted to start exploring Christian theology in a more positive way. I even mentioned you as one I would ask for recommendations to read. Did you miss that? I am disappointed about your assessment of me.


Edited to add

Aristotle, after reading my post perhaps I misread you. Perhaps your remarks were directed and the generality of my conclusion about critically examining other faiths. Maybe a lot of LDS who leave do not do that. I can assure you that I have attempted to search and study Christianity in general.
_Ceeboo
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Re: LDS or Nothing?

Post by _Ceeboo »

zeezrom wrote:I fear I have been given the wrong idea about what Catholics believe on many issues.



Me too!



Peace,
Ceeboo
_huckelberry
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Re: LDS or Nothing?

Post by _huckelberry »

Thinking of Jasons comment, "Then I really got into Bart Ehrman. I have read three or four of his books. These troubled me. Then a friend referred me to The Case for Christ and Josh McDowell's Evidence Demands a Verdict. Those books did not resonate. They seemed much to much like the LDS apologetic "

I can easily see how you find those apologetic works disappointing. They seem to be either unaware of problems or willing to bet the reader does not wish to encounter problems. It may not be helpful to search apologetics at all. My experience is that it is better to study the subject of scripture from several different viewpoints and do ones own comparisons. I would be inclined to recommend New Testament Wright for New Testament. Sure that choice is influenced by fact that his general view is similar to mine. Even so he does actual investigation and thought.

When I was very unceratain about whether to believe the Jesus story I read and liked very much the Schweitzer "Quest for the Historical Jesus".
Some people may find that book a door out of faith unlike my finding it a door into faith. I think better books do not have a guaruntee to help faith. Or the other way around, I also find Erhmans books helpful.
_Aristotle Smith
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Re: LDS or Nothing?

Post by _Aristotle Smith »

Jason Bourne wrote:Aristotle, after reading my post perhaps I misread you. Perhaps your remarks were directed and the generality of my conclusion about critically examining other faiths. Maybe a lot of LDS who leave do not do that. I can assure you that I have attempted to search and study Christianity in general.


My comment was purely generic and was not directed towards you. Prior to this comment I really didn't know anything about what you had studied. Every generalization has exceptions, and I was not trying to say you were not one of them.

If your impressions are different than mine, I would be interested in hearing what you think the average disaffected Mormon does vis-a-vis other religions.
_zeezrom
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Re: LDS or Nothing?

Post by _zeezrom »

Ceeboo,

I read this tonight: http://www.ancient-future.net/basics.html

It was interesting but I still kept thinking to myself, "this doesn't feel much different than my old beliefs." there are still some troubling aspects such as the authority coming down from Peter and how you don't have to take the creation story too seriously as long as you protect the Church.

I do kind of like their view of God better than the Mormon one though. Catholics don't have the brutal justice of the Book of Mormon weighing them down.
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

The Holy Sacrament.
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