LDS or Nothing?

[_why me]

Every time the infant baptism section in Moroni is discussed in church, Catholicism comes up. Whoever says Mormons don't talk about other religions' beliefs in meetings is lying.

Well, of course if someone mentions the word catholic during a lesson, I suppose it can happen. However, the word catholic is not to my knowledge in the priethood manual or new testament study guide. However, yes, a person from his or her seat can mention the word catholic on occasion. This is not to say that other people in the class approve of it.

I have been with catholics who also mention the word Mormon and this is done in not to favorable light. What to do?

[_why me]

I do kind of like their view of God better than the Mormon one though. Catholics don't have the brutal justice of the Book of Mormon weighing them down.

My dear zee...have you ever heard of catholic guilt? Many catholics experienced it expecially in the past. Now perhaps the church is not on a guilt trip but in the past, it certainly was. Why do you think that catholics confess their sins to the priest? Because they feel guilty about what they did or done. Our good friend conan o' brian at times mentions this guilt in his routines.

[_why me]

Surely the Catholic church does not accept the Muslim's faith as adequate to get back to the presence of God?

In a word, yes, from the catechism:

The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

And what was the catholic church's opinion of Martin Luther during the reformation? And what about the wars between catholics and protestants that lasted several hundred years in europe? With the support of the popes?

I just can't take this hypocrisy from my fellow catholics.

Okay, so times change.

[_Ray A]

I have been with catholics who also mention the word Mormon and this is done in not to favorable light. What to do?

How about going to a Mormon bishop, confessing your sins; repenting, and promising never to do them again? Then, after about a year of probation, you might even get to the temple. How about living in real life what you preach to others here in theory? Do you not know that even the devils believe?

[_cafe crema]

Surely the Catholic church does not accept the Muslim's faith as adequate to get back to the presence of God?

In a word, yes, from the catechism:

The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

And what was the catholic church's opinion of Martin Luther during the reformation? And what about the wars between catholics and protestants that lasted several hundred years in europe? With the support of the popes?

I just can't take this hypocrisy from my fellow catholics.

Okay, so times change.

What hypocrisy?? I posted a quote from The Catechism of the Catholic Church, this is what is taught, if you really were a Catholic you would know this.
And Martin Luther has what do with Catholic teaching on whether or not Muslims can expect to be in the presence of God in the next life?

You're not a "fellow Catholic" Why me you are an anti-Catholic and it really is showing in this post.

[_zeezrom]

Wow, there is no end to the interesting factor here. So the Catholic church might have the most colorful history of them all. Much more color than the Mormon church (100x).

But maybe, just maybe there is a big difference? Mormon doctrine is fluid. Catholic authority (for the most part) traces back to one source - be it a potentially flawed source. I'm likely not making sense. There is something different between Mormon history trouble and Catholic history trouble.

Say a pope started a war in 1276 AD. What does that say about the Church? What if a pope had an affair with a 17-yr old servant girl. What does that say? Is the chain of authority broken? Is the church/creeds now ruined? Are they? Can we look at Joseph Smith in the same light as a pope?

[_why me]

What hypocrisy?? I posted a quote from The Catechism of the Catholic Church, this is what is taught, if you really were a Catholic you would know this.
And Martin Luther has what do with Catholic teaching on whether or not Muslims can expect to be in the presence of God in the next life?

You're not a "fellow Catholic" Why me you are an anti-Catholic and it really is showing in this post.

Yes, the catechism sounds very nice. However, in practice it did not apply. You and others are always apt to bring up negatives in Mormon history and the 'misdeeds' of Mormon leaders. Look home to the catholic church before you go on a bandwagon. The catholic church has many skeletons in its closet. And one of those skeletons is how heretics were treated in the past and the great religious wars of the past that engulfed europe, with the blessing of many popes.

Ask a crusader about the muslims and their place in heaven or a spaniard who was fighting a war against the moors.

[_why me]

Wow, there is no end to the interesting factor here. So the Catholic church might have the most colorful history of them all. Much more color than the Mormon church (100x).

But maybe, just maybe there is a big difference? Mormon doctrine is fluid. Catholic authority (for the most part) traces back to one source - be it a potentially flawed source. I'm likely not making sense. There is something different between Mormon history trouble and Catholic history trouble.

Say a pope started a war in 1276 AD. What does that say about the Church? What if a pope had an affair with a 17-yr old servant girl. What does that say? Is the chain of authority broken? Is the church/creeds now ruined? Are they? Can we look at Joseph Smith in the same light as a pope?

Well, as I have said, no history is perfect since individuals are not perfect. I expect no perfection in the catholic church. I know its history and problems. However, the catholics here such MCB and cafe seem to ignore catholic imperfections when they so wonderfully bring up Mormon negatives. And that is hypocrisy.

Also, the Mormon church is the only church that critics seem to think should be perfect. And they constantly focus on Mormon history as a way to bounce themselves out of the lds church. However, what church is perfect? Other churches seem to get a free pass.

[_krose]

I would have an easier time believing this if I saw lots of critical thinking done by Mormons of other belief systems. The pattern I have usually seen it that most people spend months agonizing over the doctrine and history of the Mormon church before they finally conclude that's it's not true. They then spend a few days or maybe a week or two looking into other faiths and then decide it's not for them. The differences in time makes me think that the thought processes behind the two decisions are not the same.

I would say that the big difference in time and effort is largely due to the difficult emotional process of extricating oneself from a culture that has become so woven through all parts of life over many years, and overcoming the strong desire for it to still be true.

Once a person has accepted that it's okay for something that has been such a huge part of life to not be true, it takes very little actual time and study to determine that the major claims of Mormonism are false. The vast majority of people taught by the missionaries do so fairly quickly (and accurately) because they don't have the same baggage. But it takes a long time to overcome the emotional and social consequences of abandoning a closely held ideology.

[_why me]

Once a person has accepted that it's okay for something that has been such a huge part of life to not be true, it takes very little actual time and study to determine that the major claims of Mormonism are false. The vast majority of people taught by the missionaries do so fairly quickly (and accurately) because they don't have the same baggage. But it takes a long time to overcome the emotional and social consequences of abandoning a closely held ideology.

Has the Mormon church been proven false. I must have missed it. And what are the major claims of Mormonism? The Book of Mormon? Has this been proven false? Has a manucript been found?

It seems that the early church had quite a hold on its people too. The saints in Rome and else where were living a quite encompassing life with their fellow christians. And in a way, their ideology was just a tad different from the pagans.