Thinking outside the box

[_wenglund]

Once you find that special soulmate who understands you, Wade, you cling to them and don't let go! Don't let him go!

The deep longing for your own soulmate is self-evident in your plaintiff advise. This motivated me to charitably find these guys as potential soulmates for you:



Thank,s -Wade Englund-

[_Darth J]

Once you find that special soulmate who understands you, Wade, you cling to them and don't let go! Don't let him go!

The deep longing for your own soulmate is self-evident in your plaintiff advise. This motivated me to charitably find these guys as potential soulmates for you:



Thank,s -Wade Englund-

Oh, how I wish for that soul mate.

If only I could go on and on for pages on a message board thread without really saying anything or giving a straight answer, and be judged on what I meant to say (but never articulated) instead of what I actually did say.

Hopefully that special someone who can not only read my thoughts, but provide them for me, is waiting for me somewhere out there!

[_Themis]

I think this helps us to hone in on the crux of your problem--which, as I see it, is your inability to correctly distinguishing between objective and subjective, facts and opinions/faith, physical and metaphysical, science and religion, literal and figurative, etc.

I can see that you and probably many others spend to much time on these forums and reading apologetic material that you forget what the church actually teaches. I have never limited Moroni's promise to objective facts. Certainly there are important spiritual claims it is making that members will view as the most important, but the church and most of the members, except apparently many apologists, do claim that objective facts about the real world world are being made, and that those claims are vital to the spiritual claims, and cannot be separated from each other. If the Book of Mormon is fiction then the Nephites never existed and Jesus never visited them. This as some have already said would mean no second witness of Jesus. Like I said you may want to get back to what the church actually teaches and claims about the Book of Mormon and what Moroni's promise and spiritual expereinces are supposed to be able to inform one about.

I may not believe certain LDS claims, and I do attend on occasion, and associate with the church and it's members, But I think I am less an apostate then you. :)

Do you literally believe that Moroni's promise was intended as a means for determining truths like the boiling point of water, the speed of light, the distance from the sun to the earth, the cause of certain cancers, the creb cycle, the nature of bi-polar disorder, fiscal policy, the rise and fall of the third riech, etc.?

While I don't think most members would pray about such things, I see no where that it limits it like you are trying to do. In fact I have heard talks from leaders about praying about many things most members including myself would probably not. Are you saying that the church does not believe that one can or should pray about temporal issues or knowledge?

[Gadianton]

The Book of Mormon cannot be another testament of Jesus Christ unless it is a true story. If it is simply inspired fiction, then it testifies of nothing because it never really happened. Therefore, establishing the existence of the Nephites and the Jaredites is inherent in the Book of Mormon purporting to be, per the Church's after-the-fact subtitle, "Another Testament of Jesus Christ."

Nope. All that is required for the Book of Mormon to be another testament of Christ is for it to testify of Christ. Granted, it may have more force if the testifying is a part of a real story. But, that particular greater force is not necessary, nor is it the only means of greater force. It can also come, and is actually intended to come, by way of spiritual witness from God (as per Moroni 10), and by way of the precepts of Christ's gospel confirmed in the magnified lives of those who live them (as per Alma 32). In short, the intent of Moroni 10 and Alma 32 is to confirm and give force to the Book of Mormon as another testament of Christ, and not the establishment of ancient Book of Mormon civilizations. (I am surprised that I have to explain this to alleged practicing members of the Church.)

That having been said:

So what would be an example of non-archaeological evidence that is not based on Moroni's promise?

Reading the Book of Mormon and having it speak as if from the dust.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Baker]

For the Book of Mormon to have any more force than a Sunday sermon, it needs to do more than just testify of Christ.

[_wenglund]

While I don't think most members would pray about such things, I see no where that it limits it like you are trying to do. In fact I have heard talks from leaders about praying about many things most members including myself would probably not. Are you saying that the church does not believe that one can or should pray about temporal issues or knowledge?

Okay, in addition to the things I mentioned earlier, not only have you mistakenly interpreted Moroni's promise well beyond it's clearly implicit scope, but now you are confusing guidance with truth descerning methodologies. Is it any wonder you have lost faith? You really don't know what faith is or how to grow therein.

However, if you would like to learn, and are willing to humble yourself, I am willing to help teach you. Let me know.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_wenglund]

For the Book of Mormon to have any more force than a Sunday sermon, it needs to do more than just testify of Christ.

Right. Among other things, it needs to be canonized (which it has).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_harmony]

Nope. All that is required for the Book of Mormon to be another testament of Christ is for it to testify of Christ.

Fictional characters cannot testify. Fictional characters, by definition, have no voice.

The Book of Mormon rises (or falls) on the characters being real. Not "real" as in fictional characters, but "real" as in actually lived, breathed, walked, talked, ate, procreated and killed each other off. Fictional characters cannot "speak from the dust", because they have no voice; they never lived, never died, never were incorporated into dust.

Granted, it may have more force if the testifying is a part of a real story. But, that particular greater force is not necessary, nor is it the only means of greater force.

This is bogus.

Good grief, I need to get off this thread. It's vintage Wade.

[_Baker]

For the Book of Mormon to have any more force than a Sunday sermon, it needs to do more than just testify of Christ.

Right. Among other things, it needs to be canonized (which it has).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I hope this is a joke or part of some broader Wade lesson. This takes irrational to a whole new level.

[_Themis]

Okay, in addition to the things I mentioned earlier, not only have you mistakenly interpreted Moroni's promise well beyond it's clearly implicit scope, but now you are confusing guidance with truth descerning methodologies. Is it any wonder you have lost faith? You really don't know what faith is or how to grow therein.

So I take this as admission you can't show the Moroni's promise or what the church teaches about how to find truth through asking God is limited to just spiritual matters.

I will repeat my question you seem to want to avoid. While I don't think most members would pray about such things, I see no where that it limits it like you are trying to do. In fact I have heard talks from leaders about praying about many things most members including myself would probably not. Are you saying that the church does not believe that one can or should pray about temporal issues or knowledge?

You are also avoiding again that the church does indeed teach that getting an answer that the Book of Mormon is true is just as much about it being about a real people.

However, if you would like to learn, and are willing to humble yourself, I am willing to help teach you. Let me know.

I understand faith quite well. If you would like to learn about LDS faith, and what the church teaches I can help you. It's obvious you either don't know, or more likely that you want to avoid certain things that the church teaches. Why is it that we know so much more then you do about the Church and what it teaches?