reply to Gr33n from the apologist rebuttal thread

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_Sethbag
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reply to Gr33n from the apologist rebuttal thread

Post by _Sethbag »

Green, you made a reply in that thread that I wanted to take issue with, but didn't want to clutter up that thread, since it's supposed to be just for the apologists' replies to common criticisms (Thews, take the hint...).

Gr33n wrote:Based on the available evidence I don't see why anyone would admit that Joseph Smith made any official translation of the Kinderhook plates. Not because they would cast doubt upon his prophetic calling but that there are too many unanswered questions surrounding the circumstances of the events.[emphasis added by Sethbag]


Green, what's with this concept of "official"? Don't you recognize that the whole concept of "official" is just presentist projecting backward onto Joseph Smith's time the bureaucratic monstrosity of the modern LDS, Inc. and its apologists? When did Joseph Smith ever make "official" translations or revelations or whatnot? And what would have made them more "official" than if he had not done it?

Would Joseph Smith have hired trumpeters to play some sort of fanfare, some ruffles and flourishes perhaps, before making his translation? Would he have stridden out from the side of a stage to a podium placed at the center, and unveiled it under some backdrop containing the trademarked and copyrighted emblems of the church? Would he have caused a copy of it to have been written using his own blood, and then sworn, while making the sign of the first token of the Aaronic priesthood, that this was Officially the Real Deal?

You don't seem to have noticed Joseph Smith's modus operandi his whole career. There was no concept of "official" with Joseph Smith and those around him. His very utterances were all the manifestation of prophetic calling and gift that they required.

Was it "official" when Joseph Smith informed those around him, after looking at the Egyptian symbols on the papyri of Michael Chandler, that the papyri contained the words of Abraham and Joseph?

Other examples of this MO include:
Joseph Smith looking at the bones and identifying them as those of Zelph, the white Lamanite who served under Onandagus.
Joseph Smith looking at the pile of stones at Adam-Ondi-Ahman and declaring that they were in fact the remains of the altar upon which Adam offered sacrifice after being driven from the Garden of Eden.
With the delay in confession what were the real motives for Mr. Wiley and co. at the time of the supposed hoax? Were they hoping to get Joseph to buy the plates as he had purchased the Book of Abraham papyrus?

How are we supposed to know this? And, if we don't know this, how does that cast doubt on the fact that Joseph Smith apparently gave his associates a cursory explanation or executive summary of the contents and authorship of the writings on the plates?
Why didn't Joseph Smith offer to buy the plates? Why wasn't he more interested in the plates? It seems the newspaper reports of the events were more interested in the relationship between the Book of Mormon and the Kinderhook plates than the Prophet himself.

Who knows? Why does it matter whether or not Joseph offered to buy the plates? The fact is, the papyri of Michael Chandler came along at a very fortuitous time for Joseph, giving him an opportunity to "show off" his prophetic/seerific gifts to his flock and cement his claims to divine power.

By the time the Kinderhook Plates came along, Joseph's reputation was solidified amongst his believers. He'd moved on to bigger and better things. He was the Lieutenant General of the Nauvoo Legion, was strutting around in uniform with his sword and being addressed as General Smith. He was seducing women literally by the dozen, and working out ways of consummating his faux marriages with them behind Emma's back. He held a plethora of offices in the City of Nauvoo. He was a very busy man. The Kinderhook Plates may well have just been a distraction, coming unbidden, and more importantly, unneeded by Joseph Smith as a prop to solidify his standing amongst his followers.

He may well have thought that this cursory explanation about them would satisfy his followers, and by allowing the owner to take the plates away and do whatever the owner planned to do, Joseph may well have been glad of the excuse not to have to invent yet another example of scripture like he'd already done with the Book of Abraham. That was so 1830s, after all.

I don't mean to divert from the question as I agree with you concerning the inclusion of this strange event in the history of the church. The truth is that it is an event that was noted for historic purposes. It may have been looked upon at the time as faith promoting by William Clayton. It seems as such. William Clayton maybe guilty of sensationalizing the event living in such exciting times as those were. Many people have been guilty of the same thing.

There's sensationalizing, and then there's the invention of entire backstories from whole cloth. "Joseph Smith says the characters are ancient!" may well qualify as sensationalizing. "Joseph Smith says that the record is a record of a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharoah, who received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven and Earth" would qualify as sheer invention, if indeed William Clayton originated those thoughts.

Where did such specific, non-obvious detail come from, if not from Joseph Smith? Are you able to give us any good evidence, or reason to believe that William Clayton would simply invent such specifics, and attribute them to Joseph?

The bottom line is that a statement by Joseph Smith, giving ostensibly revealed knowledge or explanation of something to his followers, off the cuff, fits in 100% with his modus operandi for all sorts of statements and utterances he made during his career. There is nothing to distinguish the Kinderhook Plates statements from these others, either in style, or mode of delivery, or motive. Every time Joseph Smith pointed to a symbol on the Chandler papyri and explained to some guest of his that this was the signature of Abraham, he was doing exactly the same thing as he later did with the Kinderhook Plates.

The argument that Joseph Smith would have done this is far, far more compelling than the argument that his followers would have invented a fictitious account of the matter, filled with non-obvious detail that only a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator could otherwise have known, then attributed it to Joseph Smith, and Joseph Smith would have let it go, unchallenged, into print. The apologetic defenses against the Kinderhook Plates statements by Joseph Smith simply do not, on their merits, deserve to be taken seriously.
Last edited by Tpearl on Sat Apr 09, 2011 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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_Themis
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Re: reply to Gr33n from the apologist rebuttal thread

Post by _Themis »

+1
42
_thews
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Re: reply to Gr33n from the apologist rebuttal thread

Post by _thews »

Themis wrote:+1

+2
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths
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Re: reply to Gr33n from the apologist rebuttal thread

Post by _sock puppet »

I love Thread Wars!
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Re: reply to Gr33n from the apologist rebuttal thread

Post by _ludwigm »

Sethbag wrote:
Gr33n wrote:... I don't see why anyone would admit that Joseph Smith made any official translation of the Kinderhook plates.
Green, what's with this concept of "official"?

_______________________________________________
1. As bcspace proved to us, there is no such thing as official anything.
_______________________________________________
2. I have three level of (not native) english language.
First is the understanding - I do understand near all sentences. This is passive vocabulary.

Second level: I can express most of my thought in english. This is active vocabulary.

Third level: to formalize my thoughts as correct english sentences.
I am residing on the two and half level.
According to this, I am on Sethbag + 1, as far as I know the meaning of "+1".
________________________________________________
3.
Was William Clayton trustworthy or was he not?
A./ If he was, then the Kinderhook case did happened as Clayton has written it.
B./ If he wasn't, then please abandon 95% or 98% of the Church History, based on his diary as Joseph Smith's scribe.
C./ No third
- chance
- contingency
- contingent
- eventuality
- hazard
- posse
- possibility
- potential
- slant
As You see, I haven't the proper word.

I have translation problems.
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
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Re: reply to Gr33n from the apologist rebuttal thread

Post by _Tator »

Sethbag, a great job of putting Joseph Smith in the proper setting.

I can't even imagine Joseph Smith not giving some kind of answer to something "ancient". Can you imagine any kind of statement coming out of his mouth like, "this is very curious but I can't read it" or "I don't know what kind of writing this is"? His ego would never allow it.
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Re: reply to Gr33n from the apologist rebuttal thread

Post by _beastie »

D&C 21

1Behold, there shall be a record kept among you; and in it thou shalt be called a seer, a translator, a prophet, an apostle of Jesus Christ, an elder of the church through the will of God the Father, and the grace of your Lord Jesus Christ,

2Being inspired of the Holy Ghost to lay the foundation thereof, and to build it up unto the most holy faith.

3Which church was organized and established in the year of your Lord eighteen hundred and thirty, in the fourth month, and on the sixth day of the month which is called April.

4Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me;

5For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith.

6For by doing these things the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; yea, and the Lord God will disperse the powers of darkness from before you, and cause the heavens to shake for your good, and his name’s glory.


Before some defender of the faith calls me on it, I will add the postscript of the LORD:

PS: don't bother to heed his words if they're not official, or haven't been officially approved as doctrine
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

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Re: reply to Gr33n from the apologist rebuttal thread

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Could you imagine a Mopologist being transported back to Joseph Smith's time? He'd be murdered by his followers. Lol.

Mr. DCP should count his lucky stars...

V/R
Dr. C
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
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Re: reply to Gr33n from the apologist rebuttal thread

Post by _sock puppet »

beastie wrote:D&C 21

1Behold, there shall be a record kept among you; and in it thou shalt be called a seer, a translator, a prophet, an apostle of Jesus Christ, an elder of the church through the will of God the Father, and the grace of your Lord Jesus Christ,

2Being inspired of the Holy Ghost to lay the foundation thereof, and to build it up unto the most holy faith.

3Which church was organized and established in the year of your Lord eighteen hundred and thirty, in the fourth month, and on the sixth day of the month which is called April.

4Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me;

5For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith.

6For by doing these things the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; yea, and the Lord God will disperse the powers of darkness from before you, and cause the heavens to shake for your good, and his name’s glory.


Before some defender of the faith calls me on it, I will add the postscript of the LORD:

PS: don't bother to heed his words if they're not official, or haven't been officially approved as doctrine

Boy, D&C 21:4 (4/6/1830) kind of torpedoes the talking-as-a-man apologetic. No wiggle room out of "all his words". (By April 1843, part and parcel of the Greek Psalter incident, 'apostle' Willard Richards, the patron saint of mopologetics, claimed "Sometimes Mr. Smith speaks as a prophet, and sometimes as a mere man. If he gave a wrong opinion respecting the book, he spoke as a mere man.")

Now, I suppose that leaves TBMs responsible to follow all the words that tumble out of the 'prophet's' mouth, but not that it necessarily means they are true. Thus, there is a subset of what the prophet says and god wants followed that is not true? Why would your god want you obeying the nontruths spoken by another man? That sort of sounds like what the LDS Church says is satan's modus operandi.
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Re: reply to Gr33n from the apologist rebuttal thread

Post by _Sethbag »

Tator wrote:Sethbag, a great job of putting Joseph Smith in the proper setting.

I can't even imagine Joseph Smith not giving some kind of answer to something "ancient". Can you imagine any kind of statement coming out of his mouth like, "this is very curious but I can't read it" or "I don't know what kind of writing this is"? His ego would never allow it.

It's curious, isn't it, that Joseph Smith always had to show himself off as the go-to guy, the person with the superior knowledge. He doesn't ever seem to have been able to just be one of the guys admiring something else. No, he had to get in between the rest of the guys and whatever they had discovered to admire, and elevate himself over them by appearing to know something about it.

So when the others showed him the bones, Joseph couldn't just admire them like everyone else, he had to pronounce that these bones were Zelph, the white Lamanite, putting himself in a position of superiority to his brethren.

He had to pronounce on the altar of Adam (the old fence stones) for the same reason.

He had to say something about the Greek Psalter for the same reason.

I bet you could have approached Joseph Smith with almost anything ancient-looking and gotten some sort of bullsh!t response from him. He couldn't leave others on the same level as him, or even a superior level as the discoverers of something. He always had to elevate himself above everyone around him, and he would make up any old crap in order to do so. And by the end he was trapped into doing this by his Prophetic reputation - his followers expected this sort of thing, and he had to deliver them something.
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