Middle way Mormons are in peril

[_zeezrom]

I just saw this post on StayLDS (referred to it by John Dehlin). There is a group of "middle way" Mormons in the Logan area who LDS considers to be a threat to the church.

http://www.staylds.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 309#p30309

Is the church going to start cracking down on NOMs and cafeteria Mormons?

Why am I reminded of the days in my history class when we learned about Stalin?

[_The Nehor]

I just saw this post on StayLDS (referred to it by John Dehlin). There is a group of "middle way" Mormons in the Logan area who LDS considers to be a threat to the church.

And rightly so.

Is the church going to start cracking down on NOMs and cafeteria Mormons?

Most likely only if they are organizing and trying to bring about change in the Church (most likely if they are organizing).

Why am I reminded of the days in my history class when we learned about Stalin?

Because you for some reason equate a desire within a religion to support orthodoxy with political totalitarianism and excommunication with death camps and gulags?

Kind of a stretch.

[_Kishkumen]

Listen, this is about people like John Dehlin. The fact that John was called in too is no coincidence, and if anyone is a problem for the LDS Church right now, at least in the eyes of its more conservative elements, it is Dehlin. Frankly, while I love John, and think he has his heart in the right place, I think he has made some dangerous moves, and by dangerous I mean that they were not well calculated to avoid getting shown the door.

How much John cares at this point is another matter entirely.

What John did was help a lot of people who felt alienated from the LDS Church try to find a place for themselves within it--a place they could feel good about in terms of personal integrity and in which they would not have to cut all ties. These people often value things about the Church. They don't want to leave. But the Church does not do much to help them. John and his friends were there to help people go through the soul-wrenching experience of navigating this territory.

The post you should link to in order to understand why this development is disturbing is this one.

It may be the case, although it is not clear at this point, that Church Headquarters specifically instructed the stake president to call in this fellow.

I spent an hour and an half with the BP today. This meeting was by request from the SP.

Perhaps the most disturbing part of my "interview" was the BP told me that the SP has been in contact with church headquarters, and has asked for my "records" including tithing amounts from the previous year.

At the very least, these events were put in motion by the stake president, although I think it is possible that someone higher up is pulling his strings.

That the stake president requested his tithing records is interesting. I am not exactly sure why this would be done. The fellow claims that he declared to the bishop that he was not a full tithe payer the previous year. It appears, though, that the stake president, or someone else, had done a little online research too:

Also - I was asked about my Facebook status which has Buddhism as my religion and several Dalia Lama quotes as well a picture of the Dalia Lama being one of the influential people in my life. My daughter has used Dalia Lama quotes on MANY occasions at Stake events and such, so I can imagine the concern. Why would the SP be on my Facebook page? He's not my "friend" and I barely use that thing anyway.

Anyway, it appears like they are treating this movement to try to stay in the Church, even if you don't believe all of the truth claims, as a schismatic group. Or, it could be that they have taken this posture as they try to figure out exactly what it is that the "Middle Way" is. Based on this fellow's interest in Buddhism, they may have latched on to the possibility of doctrinal heresy in a feared mixing of Buddhism and Mormonism. It is, after all, the case that even respected LDS authors have made reference to the writings of the eastern-influenced Eckart Tolle. And, there has been an upsurge in interest in eastern religion, philosophy, and meditation at Sunstone symposia and in the magazine.

Finally, while I know this is a stretch, I think it is an interesting coincidence, at the very least, the Lou Midgley has recently locked horns with Kerry Shirts on the issue of the significance of mysticism in Mormonism, with Kerry having a more open view, while Midgley, true to form, has a very retrograde, orientalist view of mysticism as being fuzzy-headed eastern nonsense--as did Nibley before him.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

Perhaps the most disturbing part of my "interview" was the BP told me that the SP has been in contact with church headquarters, and has asked for my "records" including tithing amounts from the previous year.

I find this odd. Under the current version of the CHI, the failure to pay tithing is NOT a basis for Church discipline. I wonder what the guy's SP is up to.

[Guest]

Reading the thread referred to, I came across this post in the forum to which the OP linked:

Re: An ominous developement for Middle Way Mormons

Postby doug » 08 May 2011, 22:15
I've posted this quote before, but I think it bears repeating.

.. If someone can find something in the Book of Mormon, anything that they love or respond to or find dear, I applaud that and say more power to you. That's what I find, too. And that should not in any way discount somebody's liking a passage here or a passage there or the whole idea of the book, but not agreeing to its origin, its divinity. ...

I think you'd be as aware as I am that that we have many people who are members of the church who do not have some burning conviction as to its origins, who have some other feeling about it that is not as committed to foundational statements and the premises of Mormonism. But we're not going to invite somebody out of the church over that any more than we would anything else about degrees of belief or steps of hope or steps of conviction. ... We would say: "This is the way I see it, and this is the faith I have; this is the foundation on which I'm going forward. If I can help you work toward that I'd be glad to, but I don't love you less; I don't distance you more; I don't say you're unacceptable to me as a person or even as a Latter-day Saint if you can't make that step or move to the beat of that drum." ... We really don't want to sound smug. We don't want to seem uncompromising and insensitive. --Jeffrey Holland

If some leaders want to instigate a witch hunt, more power to them, but that would seem to fly in the face of what Elder Holland has so eloquently expressed. Who would want to be a part of such an organization? I think that any honest person need have nothing to fear, because if the church, or some officially authorized faction of it, doesn't want you in it because of your honesty, you have no place being a part of it to begin with.

This presupposes, of course, that the honest person or people in question don't overstep certain boundaries, such as vocally advocating teachings contrary to church doctrine, which seems a reasonable restriction to me. But as far as I can tell from what you have described, cwald, that's not what we're talking about. Or is it?

The point seems to be that people like Jeffrey Holland are willing to say that you can stay within the CoJCoLDS (so far as he is concerned) even if your private opinions are not orthodox.

But as The Nehor implies, what you absolutely cannot do is to get together with other people of similar mind within the CoJCoLDS to discuss such unorthodox views and express your common interest. Do that, and discipline will come thwack down on your head. The only permitted forms of sociability and identity are those set up and controlled by the CoJCoLDS.

Do we know of any mainstream Christian groups (as opposed to groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses, who might reasonably be characterized as cults) who practice a discipline that tight, and that rapidly triggered? Most mainstream churches will expel or discipline members if you push them far enough, and persistently enough, but it does seem as though the CoJCoLDS is way ahead of the pack.

Why is this?

[_Kishkumen]

I find this odd. Under the current version of the CHI, the failure to pay tithing is NOT a basis for Church discipline. I wonder what the guy's SP is up to.

That's a very good question. It could be that he is trying to get a sense for exactly how much or how little this guy cares about his membership. He sees the guy list his religion as "Buddhism" on Facebook, and he says to himself, "does this guy even consider himself Mormon?" And so he tries to collect some facts in a somewhat creepy and threatening way.

It is also possible that they were trying to figure out whether he is doing what some "Middle Way" folk and others who are disillusioned with the current Church are doing: they pay tithing as offerings because they disagree with the way the Church spends its money. If the Middle Way folk recommend this method as a kind of response or resistance to the Church, then it starts to look more like a schismatic group will its own set of practices that set it in a disobedient posture.

The latter may be kind of a long shot guess, but the request for actual tithing records does raise questions.

[_Kishkumen]

Do we know of any mainstream Christian groups (as opposed to groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses, who might reasonably be characterized as cults) who practice a discipline that tight, and that rapidly triggered? Most mainstream churches will expel or discipline members if you pushed far enough, but it does seem as though the CoJCoLDS is way ahead of the pack.

Why is this?

Other Protestant groups have a more democratic character to their organizations. They are not as rigidly top-down in their structure, or as authoritarian. The LDS Church is more like the Catholic Church would be if the Catholic Church were much younger, smaller, and more insecure. The saving grace of Mormonism is that the LDS Church is centered in a nation that prides itself in its democracy and individual freedoms. If they respond to such things too aggressively, it makes them look bad, just as it has in the past.

[_The Nehor]

The point seems to be that people like Jeffrey Holland are willing to say that you can stay within the CoJCoLDS (so far as he is concerned) even if your private opinions are not orthodox.

Yes.

But as The Nehor implies, what you absolutely cannot to is to get together with other people of similar mind within the CoJCoLDS to discuss such unorthodox views and express your common interest.

Right.

Do that, and discipline will come thwack down on your head.

And rightly so. This is called apostasy and spreading apostasy.

The only permitted forms of sociability and identity are those set up and controlled by the CoJCoLDS.

Not true at all unless you assume that sociability and identity can only be expressed in either orthodox LDS view or unorthodox LDS views.

This assumption is false.

Do we know of any mainstream Christian groups (as opposed to groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses, who might reasonably be characterized as cults) who practice a discipline that tight, and that rapidly triggered?

A few but this is rarely necessary as apostates there tend to stop bothering about Christianity, practice religion only privately, or find another faith more fitting to their views.

Most mainstream churches will expel or discipline members if you pushed far enough, but it does seem as though the CoJCoLDS is way ahead of the pack.

It is just that we have more member apostates who for some reason want to retain membership for various reasons. There is usually no problem with this. However if they want to spread their apostasy we take the Lord's admonition to heart and cut off the hand or pluck out the eye to keep the cancer from spreading.

[_Kishkumen]

In looking further down in the thread, I see that he comes to conclude that a family member turned him in:

OMG. I have been just picking my brain all day about where all this is coming from - and how the SP could possibly know all this about me and why "now." There is NO WAY this is a coincidence and there is no way he could have know this stuff from the BP or other branch members here, because I am pretty careful, and I have never used the term middle way at church and that term doesn't exist on my Facebook either. So where did it come from and why now, after two years with this calling without a TR? Why now?

I have just recently used the term "Middle Way" with my family (which is composed of of bishop counselors, HC and even a SP) in those recent emails and phone calls, just a couple of weeks ago --- AND NOW THEY THINK I AM "Satanic AND GAY." I posted one of those emails in a thread on here I think. I had more than one brother specifically call me out on the whole middle way comments I made as an "apostate teaching." OMG - somebody in my family has been in contact with my SP. This is unbelievable.

He confirmed it, evidently:

Yeah, it's for real. Talk to my HC and one of the semi- sane brothers. The call came from a family member.

I will give some details later tonight.

[Guest]

Here are the further details he promised. It appears that the John Dehlin thing was probably not a coincidence and that his stake, as well as others, is looking at this as a schismatic group. This fellow seems to have gotten dragged in by the coincidence of having certain family member connections.

My brother is a stake President in Franklin County, which borders on Cache Valley. My home town is about 20 miles from Logan Utah. Why is this important? Because my brother's stake is a stone throw from John Dehlin's. Is it a coincidence that JD got called in this week to meet with the SP? I don't think so. Now - from talking to my family members, there is no question that my brother has been in contact with my stake president, and this is what I know what is going on in the Cache Valley and Franklin County Stakes, that would cause my brother, and perhaps JD's SP to react the way they have.

Apparently there is a group of Mormons in that area that have started a "movement" that is called the "Middle Way." I don't know the details, but my SP brother has disclosed to family members that it entails more than just "internet" and "blog" activity - but the internet groups are the genesis of the the movement. I had more than one family member tell me that "church discipline" is going to happen, and those involved in the "Middle Way" are going to be the focus of it. It makes sense now why the Stake Pres would call SLC and ask for my "file."

Now, are they talking about our groups? Are they talking about NOM and StayLDS? I don't know - but it certainly makes me wonder, knowing that JD got called in last week. There is no question they know about us and, at least in the Franklin county and Cache Valley areas, the Stake Leadership considers the groups who promote the "Middle Way" a threat to the church.

Sorry - but that is a fact my friends.

Also, one of the person's involved in this middle way movement that my brother is "disciplining" is an old high school friend of mine. Only recently I have had contact with her and her husband, and they contacted me about information in regards to stayLDS and NOM. I don't know if they are involved in this supposed "movement" of any kind, and if they are, I had no knowledge of it, or want no part of it (do you hear that SP? Yes - they are monitoring us, or at least me.) But obviously, the NOM and StayLDS websites are part of the stake investigations. The StayLDS website has John Dehlin's name all over it.

Also - from talking to family members (not the SP brother), and I'm not exaggerating friends, one of my other brothers, and my mom both told me tonight that there is "no middle way in our church." I even pleaded my cause as "I just have doubts and am looking for ways to reconcile and remain a part of the church." and the response was, that because I am an RM and have gone through the temple, that excuse was not valid, and that they "would rather I go through church discipline and lose everything, so that perhaps I might realize how great the church church is when it's gone." Yes - my family WANTS me to be discipline by the church, because "they love me." My mom, who probably speaks for the family and the SP brother, made the comment that if I "would read the Book of Mormon and pray more, and quit the whole "Middle Way" that I would have enough faith to believe it all and wouldn't have to go through a church court to get my faith back." My mom is only saying what the family is saying when they get together. My brother also told me that I have been the focus of ALL family gossip the last two weeks, and that, because of this group of Mormons in the area who supposedly have started a movement, they are VERY VERY concerned, and yes, they don't feel like I have any place in the church. They consider me to be an "apostate and a threat." They don't think I have a "right" to be a part of this church if "I don't believe in it."

That's part of what made the interview so weird to me --- that the BP kept talking about church discipline. I just couldn't grasp that concept for doubting and trying to find a middle way to stayLDS.