Chalk up Another Victory for the Packer Faction

[_Doctor Scratch]

I came across an interesting and provocative thread on the ironically named Mormon Dialogue board:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/544 ... i-mormons/

Apparently, a Batman- and Robin-esque duo of TBM Chapel Mormons have banded together to combat the evils of LDS apologetics:

http://www.mormonchronicle.com/apologet ... chotomies/

In the link, they take direct aim at one of the apologists' key arguments:

One example of Mormon apologetics vain attempts to “defend the faith” can be seen in the number of articles attempting to debunk the Prophet’s association with what people today equate to occultism and “magic”. The scriptures are full of instances where the Prophets of God use tools such as: water filled goblets, rods, casting lots and-so-on, (see: Gen 30:37–39; Gen 32:24–30; Gen 44:2, 5; Lev 16:8–10; 1 Chr 24:5; 1 Chr 25:8; 1 Chr 26:13; Prov 16:33; 2 Kings 13:21; Acts 19:12; & 1 Nephi 3:11, to name just a few) as a way to receive the will of the Lord. To claim that Joseph Smith, the Prophet of the Restoration, did not use the same tools that ancient Prophets used, is in-fact a disservice to the Prophet and denies his role as restorer.

Wow... In just this one paragraph, the bloggers are blowing Hamblin's novella-length apologetic article to smithereens. Perhaps even more interesting is the fact that these bloggers are clearly aligning themselves with the "Packer Faction," evidenced by the quote they used to wrap up the post:

President Boyd K. Packer once explained that he and his friends “…had decided long since that we would live the gospel and not be ashamed of the Church or the history or any part of it.” We are not ashamed, we embrace all the principles of the Restoration of all things.

I believe I have observed in the past that a major motivating factor in apologetics is a sense of embarrassment, and the desire to lash out angrily in response to this emotion. (The Packer quote, by the way, is from his infamous "The Mantle is Far, Far Greater than the Intellect" talk.)

Predictably, the MDD Internet Mormons are reacting with rage and indignation. Volgadon and Nathair do a series of posts in which they refuses to engage with the authors' ideas and instead opt to pick at word choice, and Deborah attacks these Latter-day Saints for being "fundamentalists":

I consider myself a true believing Mormon and I think if someone sees apologists as being in apostasy they don't understand what an apologist is, as I didn't when I first heard the term. Elder Holland could be considered and apologist by some of his talks.

I also think such fundamentalism is dangerous and can lead those with such views into apostasy because when some new evidence comes forth challenging their beliefs they may not be able to make the adjustment necessary to reconcile the data with what may be the truth vs their dogma.

The poster called ERMD suggests that the Holy Ghost has communicated to him that the site is a tool of the Adversary:

I found that website recently as well.

Gave me a bad feeling.

Zerinus implies that the blogging duo might be wolves in sheeps' clothing:

I had a look at the article, and listened at the podcast; and I disagree with your assessment of it. I don't believe they are what you call "TBMs". After listening to the podcast, I came to the conclusion that it is set up by people with questionable motives.

When mercyngrace (the OP) contests this, zerinus erupts with indignation:

Questionable in what way?

I don't know Ezra (at least by that name) but I do know a bit about Brian as I've read his other websites and have posted on the forum he hosts for about 3 years.

He is a church and temple attending LDS.

Then all I can say is that you are a very gullible kind of person, and you are easily deceived. I recommend you the advice given by the Lord in the scriptures: "Behold, verily I say unto you, that there are many spirits which are false spirits, which have gone forth in the earth, deceiving the world" (D&C 50:2). "Wherefore, beware lest ye are deceived; and that ye may not be deceived seek ye earnestly the best gifts, . . ." (D&C 46:8 ).

The insane Jeff K interpreted it in a somewhat similar vein:

Looked at the blog and one can clearly note it trends toward anti Mormon bias. Reminds me of Sunstone, which I once subscribed to, much to my regret. Especially when they compared the First Presidency to a heirarchy of Nazi's. I get the same vibes from the blog.

One wonders: have the Gift of the Holy Ghost been replaced in these Internet Mormons by the Gift of the Mopologist? Have the teachings and doctrine of FARMS and FAIR replaced the things these folks learned in seminary?

And then there's rcrocket, who doesn't mince any words and goes straight in for the ad hominem attack:

The blog is mercilessly anti-Church on some political issues and is basically a front for the John Birch Society. To that extent it is out of harmony with Church teachings.

Plus, Ezra is a terrible writer: "Let’s follow the Lords council." Which council? The one in the pre-existence?

Incredible. I guess it just goes to show where the lines in the sand have been drawn. If Ezra and Brian (the "duo" of the blog) don't watch their step, they may very well wind up being the Rodney Meldrum of 2011, complete with M.I.-commissioned smear campaign.

[_sock puppet]

I came across an interesting and provocative thread on the ironically named Mormon Dialogue board:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/544 ... i-Mormons/

Apparently, a Batman- and Robin-esque duo of TBM Chapel Mormons have banded together to combat the evils of LDS apologetics:

http://www.mormonchronicle.com/apologet ... chotomies/

In the link, they take direct aim at one of the apologists' key arguments:

One example of Mormon apologetics vain attempts to “defend the faith” can be seen in the number of articles attempting to debunk the Prophet’s association with what people today equate to occultism and “magic”. The scriptures are full of instances where the Prophets of God use tools such as: water filled goblets, rods, casting lots and-so-on, (see: Gen 30:37–39; Gen 32:24–30; Gen 44:2, 5; Lev 16:8–10; 1 Chr 24:5; 1 Chr 25:8; 1 Chr 26:13; Prov 16:33; 2 Kings 13:21; Acts 19:12; & 1 Nephi 3:11, to name just a few) as a way to receive the will of the Lord. To claim that Joseph Smith, the Prophet of the Restoration, did not use the same tools that ancient Prophets used, is in-fact a disservice to the Prophet and denies his role as restorer.

Wow... In just this one paragraph, the bloggers are blowing Hamblin's novella-length apologetic article to smithereens.

It's probably the reason that today's Brethren don't
receive anything more important than how many earrings should be worn per ear. Today's Brethren are embarrassed by JSJr's face-in-the-hat, looking at magic stones, and earlier prophets' water filled goblets, rods, and casting lot. Maybe if they'd pull out JSJr's magic stones for GC they'd receive revelation right then and there and actually say something of importance. Maybe there would be speaking in tongues. Maybe the speaker would experience a vision, and god would speak through this oracle directly to the Mormons. Instead, they want to look respectable, not embarrassed. Modest numbers of earrings go right along with that.

These two TBMs, in their zeal to defend JSJr, walk all over the credibility of the current Brethren.

Perhaps even more interesting is the fact that these bloggers are clearly aligning themselves with the "Packer Faction," evidenced by the quote they used to wrap up the post:

President Boyd K. Packer once explained that he and his friends “…had decided long since that we would live the gospel and not be ashamed of the Church or the history or any part of it.” We are not ashamed, we embrace all the principles of the Restoration of all things.

I believe I have observed in the past that a major motivating factor in apologetics is a sense of embarrassment, and the desire to lash out angrily in response to this emotion. (The Packer quote, by the way, is from his infamous "The Mantle is Far, Far Greater than the Intellect" talk.)

Packer doesn't seem to be embarrassed, and in fact shows pride in being part of a peculiar people.

I consider myself a true believing Mormon and I think if someone sees apologists as being in apostasy they don't understand what an apologist is, as I didn't when I first heard the term. Elder Holland could be considered and apologist by some of his talks.

I also think such fundamentalism is dangerous and can lead those with such views into apostasy because when some new evidence comes forth challenging their beliefs they may not be able to make the adjustment necessary to reconcile the data with what may be the truth vs their dogma.

More important to remain a TBM than follow the evidence towards truth, wherever it may lead. This quote betrays a mindset that is hellbent on defending Mormonism, the evidence, the facts and the truth be damned. Deborah, is it really that important to remain in goodstanding in a club that your approach reveals to be phony?

[_moksha]

This really is no victory for the Packer faction. While the Mantle may seek to intimidate the Intellect into submission, those brainy folks at MAD will find loopholes in this literal approach. They realize that rational thinking has already won out.

[_Joseph]

ParanoidBoyd defends the magic peepstone boy in his treasure hunting?

I bet the prophets of old found lots of buried treasure that way.

Let us know when the Brigham City factory operator comes clean about the magic peepstone in the hat 'translating' method.

[_The Nehor]

Wow, one of your mythical factions is winning the mythical war you made up. Fiction has rarely risen to such thrilling heights.