The Fruits of Apostasy: Politcal Correctness

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_Kevin Graham
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Re: The Fruits of Apostasy: Politcal Correctness

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Obama can't take a lot of credit for low taxes. Almost all of the tax rates in effect as well as the credits, deductions, exclusions and so on are from the Bush years. Yes he has supported some tweaking and additional breaks for middle and low class (via payroll tax breaks, expanding college credits and some other things). But if Obama had gotten his way taxes would be higher.

Jason, I know you'll accept the facts as they are when I present them, because you actually do the necessary legwork to check the sources. Obama has in fact cut taxes for 95% of working Americans. This is really beyond dispute for economists and Tax professionals, and even Droopy's preferred sources haven't been able to come up with enough subterfuge to escape this reality. You say he would raise taxes if he had his way, but this is only true to the extent that he wanted to raise taxes below Reagan levels, only for the richest 5%. The hard reality is that income taxes have been lowered for most working Americans since Obama has been in office, and contrary to your suspicions, this isn't due to Bush's policies, or to Obama's forced compromises and negotiations with Republican legislators (as the only taxes they've ever been interested in lowering are those for their main constituents, the richest 5%).

Now we all know that Loran loves to dismiss all evidence that challenges his simple-minded world-view and Cato-engineered conclusions, as nothing more than a Soros-funded propaganda piece. He then claims his bald asssertions prove to be a refutation, but without actually backing up these assertions with evidence, they amount to little more than his ignorance, paranoia and contempt of truth, coming out in all its glory. We all know by now that Loran has never been able to respond intelligently to the objective data without using the standard FOX News smear against the data, claiming it cannot really be the truth if it derives from a Liberal. Well, that's just silly on its face, but the data doesn't "come from" liberal sources, as he chooses to fantasize. It comes from the CBO and Tax Policy Center. It is indisputable data that requires a tremendous amount of manipulation in order to twist it into a case favorable to Right Wing causes.

And of course, this is pretty much the same way he dismisses anything critics say about Church history, because we're merely "anti-Mormon" who are incapable of saying anything factual, based on that premise alone. But this is quite ironic since, if he would ever challenge himself to read anything outside the Koch/Murdoch-funded Heritage Foundation and Cato Institute, he'd know that virtually every credible economist on the planet has already conceded the points I have shared on this forum. And how can they be denied? Only in the Right Wing propaganda machine do we find the incestuous cross referencing to the same specie of periodicals that would pretend to have refuted these facts. For example, Investors Business Daily quotes Heritage and the Americans for Tax Reform as if it is some nonpartisan organization with credibility outside the inner circles of the Right Wing propaganda machine. In reality it was actually another "conduit" used for laundering money for Jack Abramoff's so-called "grass roots" movements. Such is the way behind the curtain of Right Wing parlor magicians. But for Loran, credibility matters very little, and for him these baseless propaganda pieces are treated as divine edicts from the high priests of his poliical theology. Or else why does he think that he needs no data to back up his claims, or objective analysis for support? You'll also see that a Rupert Murdocch owned publication would be compelled to argue along those same lines, and it did this in 2008, long before it was refuted by reality. As usual, these sources assert much, but usually get it all wrong, in both their predictions and suspicions. The strongest argument they've managed to make is really quite weak, ad Heritage bases much of the tax increases on "predicted" gross increases over the next decade, based on what they, not the CBO, say "Obamacare" will do for taxpayers. So it is really one giant circle of self-serving rhetoric that pretend to derive from various "Think Tanks" that supposedly, come to the same conclusions independently based on veirfiable data and sound alanysis. But the more to read the arguments by Heritage and Cato, the more you realize how desperate they are to grasp at such straws, insisting that the world accept their misrepresentation of Obama's proposed health Care reform, and ignore all the nonpartisan sources that reject their conclusions and predictions. For example, Cato argued that "Obamacare" (if such a thing even exists) would cost tax payers $6 trillion, and Right Wing pieces like Heritage have been trying to create the impression that the predicted cost of Obama care is constantly going up, the more economists analyze the relevant data. But that is also a myth created to serve their purposes.

Politifact addressed the Obama-Tax myths on a couple of occasions, here and here. The miracle of RIght Wing propaganda is that despite the fact that 95% of working families saw a significant tax cut thanks to Obama, only 12% realize their taxes have been cut. But this is a testament to teh power of propaganda. Fox News can convince ignorant folks like droopy that he's paid more in taxes even as his tax return reflect a very different reality. Specifically, from the link above:
He asked for tax cuts of $500 per worker per year; Congress agreed to $400. The tax cuts -- called Making Work Pay -- were implemented in early 2009 and people saw small increases in their paychecks.

This might not seem like a lot of money to some, but to most Americans who are living paycheck to paycheck, it means a great deal. For instance, $400 is enough to pay a family's grocery bill for a couple of months at least, but you already know this. And again, despite Droopy's insistence that this is all a game of smoke and mirrors from "leftists" the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center did a study that demonstrated at least 80% of Americans saw a tax cut under Obama's plan, the broad-based tax cuts on income being significantly larger than the proposed excise taxes. Of course leave it to Loran to focus on the taxes have gone up, but also leave it to Loran to fail when it comes to basic math. It is he who is engaged in a game of smoke and mirrors, throwing in a lot of misdirection about "leftist" bias with incomplete figures on various excise and state taxes.
As for the church making more exmo's and atheists than it does Mormon i think that is hyperbole. Convert and birth rates are still higher than exits.

It wasn't intended to be hyperbolic. I'm including convert baptisms along with those born into the Church. The fact is the Mormon Church loses more of its baptized members each year, than it retains.

But back to the point about taxes. You are right that Obama wishes to increase taxes on the wealthiest 5%, and I think that would be the only responsible thing to do at this poiint - as do most economists I might add! My point was never that Obama was a closet conservative, but rather he is not a socialist, nor do most people on the Right currently live on the planet called earth, if they think his various attempts and successes at cutting taxes for 95% of American workers, gives them room to hoist signs at Tea Parties saying idiotic things like "Taxed Enough Already." The only people who are in any position to complain about this are those who make more than 200k annually, including the multiplicity of millionaires and billionaires who have figured out how to win via propaganda. Their so-called high taxes haven't prevented them from donating millions to Republican campaigns and creating this false sense of a "grass roots" phenomenon among the average American. They used scare tactics with the ignorant and reinforced that with false information. Ultimately, without the funding and efforts initiated by Right Wing millionaires, the Tea Party never would have gotten off the ground. Loran is part of the problem, not the solution, and all he ever does is dismiss my arguments and my facts with bald assertions to the contrary. He might throw up a hyperlink to some irrelevant Cato or Heritage article every once in a while, but that hardly demonstrates a clear grasp on the subject matter - especially when those links rarely ever argue what he thinks they do.
_Droopy
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Re: The Fruits of Apostasy: Politcal Correctness

Post by _Droopy »

If there was not such a predominance among active Mormons of conservative, Republican thinking, I might agree that it was a minor feature in the LDS Church. But that is not the case.


Again, I think you have a deep misunderstanding here. There is no "political correctness" within the Church. Indeed, there is little resembling it outside the Left. The overwhelming preponderance of conservative leaning in the Church is not indicative of a "political correctness" in the church (as the salient features of this phenomena are not present), but simply of the overwhelming coincidence of gospel principles with conservative ideas, broadly speaking. Leftism does not share such a coincidence with church doctrines and teachings.

In many cases, it should also be pointed out, leftist concepts are sharply hostile to church teachings, and hence, in open conflict with the church, as with other Christians of a traditional mind.

It was you, in your OP, that suggested that when people free themselves of the LDS Church that they start thinking differently on politics as well as religion.


I made no such statement about "freeing" anyone from anything. I said "apostasy," and that is what I meant.

So it was your premise that implicates the lock-step political thinking among active TBMs.


I never said or implied any "lockstep" thinking, only critical thinking that, grounded in gospel teachings, leads, overwhelmingly, to a conservative/libertarian view.
Four years of high school Mormon seminary, 6 years at BYU-Provo, 2 years on a Mormon mission. As my mind was maturing and becoming ever more inquisitive, in these settings when the topic was LDS Church then independent thinking was discouraged.


I don't know what you mean by "independent thinking" here, but in any event, I was always taught to "study it out in my mind" for myself, and seek confirmation from the Spirit. I was always taught not to take the words of the Brethren blindly, simply because they were the Brethren.

I always find it interesting how so many who have left the church make claims for radically different experiences within the church than most Mormons I've ever known, including myself, have actually had in our own lives. Could this be a subjective reframing, or convenient reinterpretation of events on their part, post apostasy?

I not only felt it personally in those venues, but I witnessed it time and time again. I've been deeply entrenched inside as well as now having the perspective of distance from Mormonism. On issues pertaining to religion and the church, the LDS experience is anti-critical thinking, particularly as contrasted with the encouragement of critical thinking on the topic of religion (and academic topics).


Well, I'll have to take that as your own personal, subjective perception on the matter, as my own experience has been radically the opposite. I'm sure Daniel would strongly disagree, as would all the scholars who work at the NMI and who have dedicated their lives to critical thinking, scholarship, and the life of the spirit, all at the same time.

I see the problem here as one of your attempting to project a strong subjective bias and perspective as an objective observation and analysis of LDS culture, which, unfortunately, just is not shared by large numbers of faithful LDS, who are very much interested in and respectful of critical thought.

Ironically, the Church itself has always laid intensive stress on education, the gaining of knowledge, wisdom, and intelligence through study, both formal and personal. Indeed, this has been heavily emphasized at least since Brigham Young, who was emphasized the importance of education and study with great lucidity.

This, however, should be no wonder, as the very plan of salvation is grounded on the concept. The glory of God, is intelligence. Our own scriptures implore the gaining of knowledge "by study and by faith."

I suspect sock, that your definitions here, both of just what critical thinking entails, as well as its core purpose and scope, are perhaps quite a bit different than most LDS. I also suspect that your conceptualization of just what kind of knowledge or thinking is of most importance, as well as what subjects are of priority, may be substantially different than mine, most LDS, and most conservatives. I also think it likely that your epistemic assumptions about just what constitutes legitimate knowledge, and how it is acquired, is severely divergent from most faithful LDS, regardless of educational level.

Been there, done that, was suppressed when I would attempt to voice a view that wasn't harmonizing with the correlated company line.


Correlation is nothing more than insuring that the same lessons and doctrines are taught on Sunday, around the world, in all LDS churches, in all the manuals and teaching aids, and that the doctrine remains clear, undiluted, amd uncorrupted. That's what apostles and prophets are here for.

Dr Shades pointed out the difference between Chapel Mormons and Internet Mormons.


And as I and others have been pointing out for years, this is a concocted fiction useful in anti-Mormon criticism and polemics that exists only within Shade's mind (besides being an example of gratuitous intellectual condescension of the classical leftist variety, from which sociopolitical realm Shades himself hails).

For every 1 internet Mormon, how many Chapel Mormons are there?


Faithful LDS, whether or not they spend a great deal of time on the web, are all unified in gospel knowledge, faith, and testimony by the Holy Spirit, which is the the means by which the Saints know truth and know falsehood when it is seen, felt, and present to their minds.

Is Daniel Peterson a chapel or internet Mormon? What am I? What is Wade? What is John Gee? What is Michael Rhodes? What is NMI scholar x? You see, this whole fiction breaks down immediately once it becomes obvious that a great many critically thinking, highly educated Mormons frequent the Internet on a regular basis.

I left the Mormon Church before the internet came along, but there were about half a dozen per ward that were buying books like that of Fawn Brodie and reading them.


Until they found out that Brodie was a very unreliable and sloppy historian, I imagine. Is anybody still taking her seriously?

The rest, it was all out of the manual and they did not make a comment about the scriptures unless it was in line with what the manual told them the scriptures meant.


The "manual." You mean statements and teachings of the Brethren, I assume, which is there purpose. The manuals per se do nothing more than clarify and support the doctrine of the Church, and all, yes, correlated to prevent happening what happened in the early church.

All cultural institutions do have some influence on our thinking, but after leaving Mormonism and then looking back (in the rearview mirror) it has become obvious that the smothering influence of LDS when you are active TBM is many fold the combined influence of all the other institutions.


Again, millions of LDS haven't had that experience, which leads me to believe that what we are dealing with here are your own psychological dynamics and associated perceptions of the Church and its teachings, not an objective analytical criticism.

What you are calling "smothering," is, I deeply suspect, in the beholder's eye...yours.

Noting that more liberal thinking fits Kevin's thinking is not begging the question. It is noting an obvious example of how LDS influence was distorting an individual from finding out what his own personal political beliefs are.


Upon what basis can you claim that this is the obvious inference from Kevin's behavior? Another, equally plausible explanation is that his leftism, which, we should recall, was a very sudden lurch to the left from a staunch conservative position, represents a continued reaction and reorientation to his leaving of the Church, an act that had a significant effect on his perceptions of the world because of a deep knowledge he had (and perhaps still does) that the Church is, indeed true, and that this reorientation must include, by extension, all other teachings or principles having resemblance, in any way, to the gospel teachings he has rejected.

In other words, his reaction (including a persona displaying a preponderance of deep hostility, angst, and intolerance of any views different than his own) was to move to the Left because it is on the Left that he can move away from the Church the farthest.


Now it gets interesting:

How do you know your not a god in embryo?


Because the idea is patently absurd.


Upon what basis?

Even GBH tried to deep six the notion, claiming not to understand it and that the LDS Church didn't teach that.


Nonsense. GBH made no mention of this idea. The answer he gave in that interview was about God the Father having a father, and so on back through the eternities, and of being a man in form just as humans are here on earth, and not about deification. This has, in any case, all been put to rest years ago, and is not worth resurrecting for yet another horse beating.

Since TSM has not revived that notion, why do you cling to it as a TBM?


He doesn't have to. Its gospel doctrine, has been since it was introduced, and remains to today. Its at the very center of the entire plan of salvation as understood in the Church.

I have many disparate thoughts about many different issues. My mind attempts to make sense of these disparate thoughts, but the more information I learn, the more I realize that the mind's attempt to make all information harmonize keeps one from really learning the different information.


Are you seeking after information, or after truth?


You might say I take pains to create cognitive dissonance for myself. I find this yields greater light and knowledge than if I allow my mind to try to pigeonhole all new information within the confines a few simplistic notions. So no, I do not have what you call a 'philosophical core'.


This is all as I thought, and it rather makes sense in light of your overall approach to things.


Then you should like and feel quite at home with political correctness. It does for political thinking what Mormonism does for religious thinking: it stomps the individuality out of it.


Political correctness and the gospel are utterly polar. Again, you appear to be deeply confused about both pc and the principles of the restored gospel.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Kevin Graham
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Re: The Fruits of Apostasy: Politcal Correctness

Post by _Kevin Graham »

I love calling out some Right Wingers for inexcusably being ignorant about their own icon. Every tea party fanatic on my Facebook describes themselves as a "Reagan Conservative." But why?

Even Ford and Carter did a better job at cutting government. Reagan's 1982 tax increase was the largest tax increase in American history. Even the heralded Tax Reform Act of 1986 is more deception than substance. It shifted $120 billion over five years from visible personal income taxes to hidden business taxes. It lowered the rates, but it also repealed or reduced many deductions.

Why can't Loran Blood admit these facts?
_MsJack
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Re: The Fruits of Apostasy: Politcal Correctness

Post by _MsJack »

bloggernacleburner wrote:Hey Ms Jack!

Was thinking about getting back in the game and heard about your kerfuckle over here so I thought I'd come play while the kitties are percolating.

I watched Droop for a little while. I think i've got his type pegged.

Wow. I didn't say crap about it on my blog, yet news gets around.

In any case, congratulations, because you just hit pay dirt for material. You hazed one of our members some time ago.

by the way, I just peaked in on your blog. LOL, seriously? What did it say? (I can take a really good guess, but will ask just the same . . .)
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

My Blogs: Weighted Glory | Worlds Without End: A Mormon Studies Roundtable | Twitter
_Droopy
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Re: The Fruits of Apostasy: Politcal Correctness

Post by _Droopy »

Jason, I know you'll accept the facts as they are when I present them, because you actually do the necessary legwork to check the sources. Obama has in fact cut taxes for 95% of working Americans.
.

Lie number one. Let's start keeping tabs on this and we can do a final tally at the end. You see, whether or not Obama actually cut taxes depends deeply upon the your definition of "tax cut."

What Kevin is not going to tell you is that Obama's "tax cuts" are not letting you keep more of your own money by cutting, in am absolute sense, marginal tax rates or income taxes, but government tax credits funded by tax revenue or fiat money and extended to American citizens, upwards of a third of which now pay no income tax at all and are net receivers of their fellow citizens money.

There were seven such "tax cuts", including:

1. A $500 tax credit for individuals or $1,000 per couple for working couples that phases out at income of $75,000 for individuals and $150,000 per couple.

2. A $4,000 tax credit for college tuition.

3. A mortgage interest tax credit of 10% that would exists alongside of other, preexisting mortgage interest deductions as well as other forms of housing subsidy.

4. A "savings" tax credit of 50% up to $1,000.

5. An expanded earned-income tax credit

6. A child care credit of 50% up to $6,000 of expenses a year.

And the most obvious scam of all, the "clean car" credit that would pay you government money toward the purchase of government approved "green" vehicles.

There we have the Obama middle class tax cuts. I invite Mr. Graham to show the marginal rate tax cuts that are actually, empirically, and unambiguously cuts in actual marginal rates from higher percentages of taxable income to lower. I invite him to show the absolute cuts in income tax rates to American citizens. This should be an easy task empirically.

Further, all of the above "tax cuts" save for the clean car wealth transfer are "refundable," which is a semantic obfuscation that translated means that people with no tax liability at all can receive the tax "credit." In other words, virtually all of these "tax cuts" are, in point of fact, redistributions of wealth.

How do we know this? Because the legislation exists, for one reason. The other is because the cost of these "tax cuts" to the federal treasury is set to rise by $647 billion to $1.054 trillion. Yes, uh...Obama's "tax cuts" are actually federal expenditures.

You say he would raise taxes if he had his way, but this is only true to the extent that he wanted to raise taxes below Reagan levels, only for the richest 5%.


As I've already shown, and as is acutely available all over the web, in intellectual reviews and other venues for anyone interested on both sides of a political issue, Obama was set to raise all marginal rates from the lowest to the highest to a substantial degree, including dividend, corporate, and and estate taxes, but was prevented from doing so for two years by the Tax Relief Act of 2010. That act expires in 2013. As I also pointed out, the sunsetting of the Bush taxes alone would represent one of the largest effective tax hikes in U.S. history, which again gives the lie to claims of Obama "tax cuts."

The hard reality is that income taxes have been lowered for most working Americans since Obama has been in office, and contrary to your suspicions, this isn't due to Bush's policies, or to Obama's forced compromises and negotiations with Republican legislators (as the only taxes they've ever been interested in lowering are those for their main constituents, the richest 5%).


This is patently false, and can be shown to be empirically to to a five year old, so let's stop the pretense. I've already shown that the analysis you're using cannot be used to make the assertions you're making.

Of course, one can argue, in a very broad sense, that taxes are at historic lows over a long period. When JFK entered office, the highest marginal rate was 90%. This dropped to 70% under Kennedy and then to 28% under Reagan. Its been moving upward since, to 35% now and which Obama wants to raise to nearly 40%. But withholding taxes and income taxes are just the tip of a colossal tax burden that covers nearly everything we buy, consume, and do. Some kinds of taxes are, indeed, lower than they were long before Kevin was born, but they are at all time highs in a combined sense, especially as to the vast plethora of economic activity they capture.

American corporate taxes are among the highest in the western industrialized world.

But this all tends to hide the really important aspect of both rational and moral tax policy, because the question of taxation is as much, if not much more, a moral question, and a question of the proper scope and prerogatives of the state as it is a strictly economic calculus.

I'm snipping all of Graham's typical ad hominem circumstantial attacks looking for something worth responding to...


But back to the point about taxes. You are right that Obama wishes to increase taxes on the wealthiest 5%,


This is a partisan deception, and known to be so as a matter of documentary fact. You continue at your own moral risk, Kevin.

and I think that would be the only responsible thinto do at this poiint - as do most economists I might add!


The only economists Graham has ever sourced for this claim are a few government insiders working for government agencies, including the Fed itself. The thousands of Chicago School and Austrian scholars who diverge from this nonsense are never mentioned. In any case, Kevin has no actual knowledge of any such consensus among "most economists." He's regurgitating the claim from the mainstream media, and nothing more, and all they can show, no matter which source you go to, are perhaps a dozen government insiders or dependents (including corporations dependent on government subsidies for their economic viability) clamoring for more loot.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
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Re: The Fruits of Apostasy: Politcal Correctness

Post by _Droopy »

Even Ford and Carter did a better job at cutting government. Reagan's 1982 tax increase was the largest tax increase in American history. Even the heralded Tax Reform Act of 1986 is more deception than substance. It shifted $120 billion over five years from visible personal income taxes to hidden business taxes. It lowered the rates, but it also repealed or reduced many deductions.

Why can't Loran Blood admit these facts?



Graham is a not very educated but passionate pop Marxist animated with a particularly viscous streak of class envy. He doesn't appear to have a particularly well developed taste for the truth and sees little value in pursuing it. Hence, his posts.

The tax hike of 1982 (TEFRA) was a Democrat deception in which Democratic sponsors promised 3 dollars of spending cuts for every dollar of tax increase. The spending cuts were never made (actually some were, at a drastically smaller percentage). Reagan rued the deal in his memoirs, and Ed Meese called it "the greatest domestic error of the Reagan administration."

Graham, as is his wont, and in the style of his primary sources of knowledge, the Huffington Post, Media Matters, and the Workers World, only scans the surface of every issue for polemically useful material.

He has no use for diving beneath the surface, let alone going to the bottom.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Kevin Graham
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Re: The Fruits of Apostasy: Politcal Correctness

Post by _Kevin Graham »

I said,

Even Ford and Carter did a better job at cutting government. Reagan's 1982 tax increase was the largest tax increase in American history. Even the heralded Tax Reform Act of 1986 is more deception than substance. It shifted $120 billion over five years from visible personal income taxes to hidden business taxes. It lowered the rates, but it also repealed or reduced many deductions.

Why can't Loran Blood admit these facts?


To which Loran responded:

Graham is a not very educated but passionate pop Marxist animated with a particularly viscous streak of class envy. He doesn't appear to have a particularly well developed taste for the truth and sees little value in pursuing it. Hence, his posts.

The tax hike of 1982 (TEFRA) was a Democrat deception in which Democratic sponsors promised 3 dollars of spending cuts for every dollar of tax increase. The spending cuts were never made (actually some were, at a drastically smaller percentage). Reagan rued the deal in his memoirs, and Ed Meese called it "the greatest domestic error of the Reagan administration."

Graham, as is his wont, and in the style of his primary sources of knowledge, the Huffington Post, Media Matters, and the Workers World, only scans the surface of every issue for polemically useful material.

He has no use for diving beneath the surface, let alone going to the bottom.


ROFL!

Loran takes the bait...

I've been laughing so hard about this for the past few minutes, I had to catch my breath before closing the trap on poor Loran. Tha gag is on you Droops, as usual, since the source for my information is none other than your mises.org website, which you quote more than any person on the web. But when I do it, you accuse me of regurgitating leftist mantra! ROFL!!!!

http://mises.org/freemarket_detail.aspx?control=488

As you can see, I essentially cut and pasted portions from the article just to get a rise out of you, and to your credit, you didn't disappoint. You responded just as I expected. By making a complete ass of yourself, as usual.

Bravo Loran, bravo.

I'll close with the summary from the article, published by your favorite "think Tank" that employs only the brightest minds and most credible experts!

ROFL!

Reagan's fans argue that he has changed the terms of public-policy debate, that no one today dares propose big spending programs. I contend that the alleged spending-shyness of politicians is not the result of an ideological sea-change, but rather of their constituents' fiscal fright brought about by $250 billion Reagan budget deficits. If the deficit ever shrinks, the demand for spending will resume.

This is the Reagan legacy. He was to be the man who would turn things around. But he didn't even try. As he so dramatically illustrated when he accepted the plant-closing bill, there has been no sea-change in thinking about the role of government.


EDIT: Droopy claims this is a democrat deception and Reagan admitted the error. Oh yeah, when? Here he is on video chastising corporations for failing to "pay their fair share."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SekB2_Wmkzg

Reagan would be unelectable today.
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_Jason Bourne
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Re: The Fruits of Apostasy: Poliitcal Correctness

Post by _Jason Bourne »

What about active members that have liberal political views? I know they are the minority but they do exist. I know a number and regardless of what you and BC think they are devoted Latter-day saints.


I would say these are people who are have compartmentalized their political views so as to avoid cognitive dissonance and psychological inner conflict. This involves any number of intellectual rationalizations/psychological defenses etc. This says nothing about their "devout" status, at least as far a church activity goes, but only that syncretistic tendencies are in play, very similar, in essence, to those that eventually corrupted the church after the 1st century due to the importation of Hellenistic philosophy.



So you think that while they are active members their liberal political views if perpetuated will lead to the apostasy of the Church similar to the early first and second century?

Obama can't take a lot of credit for low taxes


Come on Jason, taxes are at all time highs at all levels.


Come on Droopy I never said they were really really low. I said he simply went with the flow and extended the Bush era tax cuts. So he cannot claim to have lowered taxes.

And by the way, taxes are not at an all time high at least as far as the rates imposed on the various buckets of income though you are correct in noting AMT is an ever increasing problem.

I exploded Kevin's propaganda ploy, taken from a Soros spin tank, on the other thread where attempted to foist it. The claims of the Center for American Progress are patently and intuitively wrong, as five minutes of research on the Web will show you. The study upon which the claim is based is fatally crippled by deeply flawed methodology in its construction that renders large swaths of federal taxation invisible. Further, it does not take into account state and local taxation, and the vast underbelly of federal and state tax that falls outside income, corporate, dividend, and payroll taxes. The entire claim is a wash. Further, Obama has not lowered taxes, nor has he ever attempted to do so.

Before passage of HR 4853, taxes were set for three great waves of massive tax expansion. The first was the expansion of marginal rates along the following lines:

- The Bush tax cuts would have expired, representing one of the largest effective tax increases in history.
- The 10% bracket would rise to 15%
- The 25% bracket would rise to 28%
- The 28% bracket would rise to 31%
- The 33% bracket would rise to 36%
- The 35% bracket would rise to 39.6%
- Capital gains taxes would rise from 15 percent to 20 percent.
- Dividends tax rates rise from from 15 percent to 20 percent;

The marriage penalty returns, along with the death tax.

Following this, we are set for two massive waves of taxation: those involving the Obamacare, assuming it survives court challenge, and substantial tax increases involving:

A plethora of tax increases on small business

The substantial cutting of small business expensing by 50%

The lack of indexing of the AMT (the notorious Alternative Minimum Tax).

Charitable contributions from IRAs will be ended.

And we can go on and on and on.

HR 4853 was a compromise package with the Democrats and the White house that retained the Bush tax rates and preserved present marginal rates. However, as with so much that comes out of Congress at present, these reforms are merely temporary fixes. The higher Obama rates and increases will appear again in 2013 without further legislation.


Yes Droopy I am acutely aware of what the results of the tax bill in late 2010 retained as well as what would have been the result had it not been passed. I am also well aware that the extension of the tax provisions you list above expire again in 2012 and a battle will once again ensue over this topic.

I am also aware of the various taxes that may be imposed by Obama care.

My point to Kevin was simply Obama cannot take credit for the lower rates and other tax provisions that were extended. He can take credit for expanding the college credits, the current reduction in payroll taxes for 2011, the previous two years of the making work pay credit, some credits to companies for hiring those who have been unemployed, the 100% deduction for all capital expenditures through the end of 2011 regardless of the size of the company (was 50% in 2009 and 2010) as will as in prior years in increase in expensing of capital equipment for small businesses and a few other odds and ends that I am forgetting since I am doing this by memory. Most of these have been focused on low to moderate income Americans..[/quote]


As for the church making more exmo's and atheists than it does Mormon i think that is hyperbole. Convert and birth rates are still higher than exits.


Who said it makes them?


Kevin did. I was responding to him.
Last edited by Lem on Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
_Kevin Graham
_Emeritus
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Re: The Fruits of Apostasy: Politcal Correctness

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Kevin did. I was responding to him.


Not trying to be mean or anything, but Loran's failure to comprehend who is saying what, while at the same time not recognizing the mantra from his #1 source on the web, makes me wonder if the guy back to the bottle.
_Kevin Graham
_Emeritus
Posts: 13037
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:44 pm

Re: The Fruits of Apostasy: Politcal Correctness

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Keep in mind Jason, that Loran is merely reciting what taxes were prior to the Bush Tax cuts, and then leaps to the non sequitur that Obama wanted to return to these levels for all brackets. This is a popular Right Wing lie that gets circulated in their propaganda machine. Obama has stated on numerous occasions that he wanted to actually reduce taxes for everyone except those making over 250k per year. So as usual, Loran's never to be, "largest tax increase in history" would be based on faulty predictions that are based on faulty assumptions that have been fed to him by those Liberal hacks working for Mises.org. (grin)

Having said that, the only reason this would constitute "one of the largest tax increases" is because Bush gave the wealth "one of the largest tax cuts." But Obama didn't want to increase the lower brackets. Droopy is flat out lying about that.

Economists are essentially united - except for a fringe minority of Right Wingers - in that the Bush Tax cuts were the primary cause of our deficit, and any proposal to reduce the deficit must, by necessity, include an increase in taxes for the rich. I've backed this up numerous times and can do it again if I need to, but Droopy knows about these folks already, but rejects them as a bunch of liberals conspiring to destroy the country so they can turn it into a communist nation, etc.
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