why me wrote: No money, no fame and a small religious following upon his death. He failed if that were his goal. .
I can only conclude you are a liar or just stupid. He was known all over the US when he was killed, had a large following of tens of thousands for a religion that started less then 15 years previous. Religious growth slowed significantly after Joseph.
When he tried to get a publisher, he had difficulties because of the townspeople and their attitude toward Joseph Smith and his claims. Then, when the book was published no one wanted to buy it. He failed.
No he had trouble raising the money necessary to get it published. Very few even cared. This is why Martin Harris was needed.
The church succeeded with BY and his move westward and Joseph became respected and 'famous'
Church growth actually slowed significantly, and most growth was due to having children. Moving to Utah and then going public about polygamy probably had significant influence on convert growth.
why me wrote:There were a lot of hard feelings on both sides. No love lost. The rumor mill was circulating between them both. No phones back then or telephones. Just rumor mongers. Both were human beings with imperfections. But I don't think that emma was a sociopath unless she knew about it all being a fraud, if it was a fraud.
What rumors? In this story, there are no rumors. Brother Brigham is conveying --- first hand --- a statement made by Smith, while Emma was in the room.
Either (1) Emma poisoned Smith; (2) Brigham is lying, or (3) Smith is lying.
Personally none of the three alternatives would surprise me. Why don't you tell me which you think is most likely.
I'm pretty sure why me is going with the "Brigham Young was a rumormonger" defense. Funny how I can't remember any Sunday School lessons where Brother Brigham was depicted as a rumormonger who spread scandalous lies about Joseph and Emma. Was I sleeping through those classes or was it just not part of the correlated curriculum?
"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain "The lds church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo
why me wrote: Emma would have been a sociopath if she knew it were a fraud. The amount of suffering experienced by the members as they were driven from New York to Utah would have melted the heart of most people. But not emma. She allowed all the suffering and death around her to protect a fraud. Thus, she was a sociopath.
Now if she were convinced that her hubby was a prophet, no sociopath tendencies existed.
Can you do more then just assert things you have no idea about.
Themis wrote: We already have some evidence suggesting it was through the spiritual eye. This of course was Joseph stock and trade with his treasure seeking.
That's becuase you avoid other evidence which suggests that they did. Do you know how they would differentiate between the two. Particularly read up on glass looking.
brade wrote: P1: If the Mormon church were a fraud, then it wouldn't still exists. P2: The Mormon church still exists. C: Therefore, the Mormon church isn't a fraud.
Do you believe P1 and P2 are true and the logic from P1 and P2 to C is valid? In other words, do you believe this is a sound argument?
P1 shows just how illogical whyme can be. Maybe he could explain how it is supposed to be logical.
brade wrote: P1: If the Mormon church were a fraud, then it wouldn't still exists. P2: The Mormon church still exists. C: Therefore, the Mormon church isn't a fraud.
Do you believe P1 and P2 are true and the logic from P1 and P2 to C is valid? In other words, do you believe this is a sound argument?
P1 shows just how illogical whyme can be. Maybe he could explain how it is supposed to be logical.
why me wrote: Emma would have been a sociopath if she knew it were a fraud. The amount of suffering experienced by the members as they were driven from New York to Utah would have melted the heart of most people. But not emma. She allowed all the suffering and death around her to protect a fraud. Thus, she was a sociopath.
Now if she were convinced that her hubby was a prophet, no sociopath tendencies existed.
Can you do more then just assert things you have no idea about.
If as you claim that emma was in on the fraud, what would you call her for allowing so many people to suffer because of it? What kind of person would allow people to trek to unknown lands with a man she had problems with knowing that it was all fake? And the suffering these people endured on their way to the then unknown valley?
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Equality wrote: I'm pretty sure why me is going with the "Brigham Young was a rumormonger" defense. Funny how I can't remember any Sunday School lessons where Brother Brigham was depicted as a rumormonger who spread scandalous lies about Joseph and Emma. Was I sleeping through those classes or was it just not part of the correlated curriculum?
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Themis wrote: That's becuase you avoid other evidence which suggests that they did. Do you know how they would differentiate between the two. Particularly read up on glass looking.
These poor guys throughout their lives were asked to go over again and again what they saw and felt with their hands. If I were them, I don't think that I could have taken it. When one sees an angel one can describe it as seeing it through spiritual eyes. Why not? Sounds good and different from the past 30 times. Then back to the same old same old for the next 30 times when asked to give it again.
But on the deathbed, he was as clear as the sun on a sunny day about what he saw.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Jaybear wrote: What rumors? In this story, there are no rumors. Brother Brigham is conveying --- first hand --- a statement made by Smith, while Emma was in the room.
Either (1) Emma poisoned Smith; (2) Brigham is lying, or (3) Smith is lying.
Personally none of the three alternatives would surprise me. Why don't you tell me which you think is most likely.
Emma Smith Bidamon's final years in Nauvoo were family-focused and private. She shared the Nauvoo House, her final home, with relatives and friends and basked in the love and care of her children and grandchildren. She continued to live her life with genteel qualities, meeting adversity and difficulty with grace and equanimity. She was polite to the "Utah Mormons" who occasionally visited, but was firm in her decision to remain apart from them.
Though Emma was publicly criticized by Church leaders for her failure to remain faithful to her husband's mission, she was sympathetically remembered by some of her former Nauvoo friends. Many of them, unlike Emma, had found the courage to accept the doctrine of plural marriage. "I know it was hard for Emma, and any woman to enter plural marriage in those days," wrote Emily Partridge Young, a plural wife, "and I do not know as anybody would have done any better than Emma did under the circumstances" (Woman's Exponent 12 [Apr. 1, 1884]:165).
In 1892 at the jubilee celebration in Salt Lake City of the founding of the Nauvoo Relief Society, a motion to hang a life-size portrait of Emma Smith in the Tabernacle brought mixed responses from the Relief Society board members. To settle the question, Relief Society president Zina D. H. Young took the matter to Church President Wilford Woodruff, who replied that "anyone who opposed it [hanging the portrait in the Tabernacle] must be very narrow minded indeed" (Emmeline B. Wells Diary, March 11, 1892, HDC). Fifty years had softened bitter memories, and Emma Smith could once again be honored as a leader of women and remembered for the essential part she had played in the restoration of the gospel and the support she gave her Prophet-husband through the difficult years of his ministry.
In the end, it all ended well. Right? I don't expect Brigham or Emma to be perfect beings. As Joseph said of himself in a letter to Emma:
"I have called to mind all the past moments of my life and am left to morn and shed tears of sorrow for my folly in suffering the adversary of my soul to have so much power over me". Joseph knew that he wasn't perfect and suffered accordingly for his own faults. See bushman page 106
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith