For Why Me - Stepping Outside

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_honorentheos
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For Why Me - Stepping Outside

Post by _honorentheos »

Why Me,

This post is meant to respond to you without further derailing consig's thread. Where, by the way, your continued interuption is incredibly ungentlemanly, though it is a habit you seem to have.

First, let's get something straight. I wish you would stop pretending that you post as a pro-Mormon for any other reason than you were not accepted by the ex-Mormon crowd and felt picked on because of it. There is nothing more to your posting than Buddy Pine - Syndrome. You remember that thread back in September about rfm? Yeah. So do I.

So, as to the witnesses deserving some primary role in determining the truth claims of the Book of Mormon, I offer you the words of none other than Joseph Smith himself -

"I now left David and Oliver, and went in pursuit of Martin Harris, who I found at a considerable distance fervently engaged in prayer; he soon told me however that he had not yet prevailed with the Lord, and earnestly requested me, to join him in prayer, that he also might realize the same blessings which we had just recieved: we accordingly joined in prayer, and ultimately obtained our desires, for before we had yet finished, the same vision was opened to our view; at least it was again to me, and I once more beheld, and seen, and heard the same things; whilst at the same moment, Martin Harris cried out, apparently in an ecstasy of Joy “’Tis enough, ’tis enough; mine eyes have beheld, mine eyes have beheld”, and jumping up he shouted, Hosanna, blessing God; and otherwise rejoiced exceedingly."


Think about that one for a while. Joseph almost tells us straight-forwardly in his own history that the events the witnesses saw were - wait for it - IN THEIR OWN BLEEDING MINDS! When multiple members of the three witnesses later made statements about seeing the visions with their spiritual eyes, it corresponds well with Joseph's own way of describing the event. What's that you say? They all rejected that claim and made additional statements to the effect they saw the vision as clearly and surely as they could see a table or other object in front of them and their interviewer? So what? Now we have conflicting accounts and the account of Joseph above seems to support the accounts that they did not see a physical object in front of them.

They aren't primary to determining if the Book of Mormon is a true account of an ancient people. Plain and simple. If you really believed it yourself, your own life would reflect it better. Clearly, you yourself see it as a form of allegory or a nice idea.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_Fence Sitter
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Re: For Why Me - Stepping Outside

Post by _Fence Sitter »

While waiting for the obligatory rote response of "And yet none of them ever denied their testimony" from Why Me here is another issue to consider.

How much stock did the three witnesses actually put into their claim of an angel appearing to them if by 1837 they had left the Church. Really? An angel appears to them to verify that this is a prophet of God and he is doing his work and yet they leave both the prophet and the work within a short amount of time? What does that say about what they really saw?

And how much stock did the any of the eight witnesses not named Smith give to just handling the plates? They too were soon gone from the Church. If holding and feeling 'something' in their hands really meant anything wouldn't at least some of them have stayed with the Church?

How can people hundreds of years later believe these witnesses when they themselves left the Church?
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_why me
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Re: For Why Me - Stepping Outside

Post by _why me »

honorentheos wrote:
So, as to the witnesses deserving some primary role in determining the truth claims of the Book of Mormon, I offer you the words of none other than Joseph Smith himself -

"I now left David and Oliver, and went in pursuit of Martin Harris, who I found at a considerable distance fervently engaged in prayer; he soon told me however that he had not yet prevailed with the Lord, and earnestly requested me, to join him in prayer, that he also might realize the same blessings which we had just recieved: we accordingly joined in prayer, and ultimately obtained our desires, for before we had yet finished, the same vision was opened to our view; at least it was again to me, and I once more beheld, and seen, and heard the same things; whilst at the same moment, Martin Harris cried out, apparently in an ecstasy of Joy “’Tis enough, ’tis enough; mine eyes have beheld, mine eyes have beheld”, and jumping up he shouted, Hosanna, blessing God; and otherwise rejoiced exceedingly."

.


I don't see it your way at all. It seems that martin had a beautiful experience. Since Joseph Smith already seen the vision, he could only say that what he said about seeing it again. For martin it was his first vision. Thus, for Joseph Smith it was the same vision.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_why me
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Re: For Why Me - Stepping Outside

Post by _why me »

Fence Sitter wrote:
How much stock did the three witnesses actually put into their claim of an angel appearing to them if by 1837 they had left the Church. Really? An angel appears to them to verify that this is a prophet of God and he is doing his work and yet they leave both the prophet and the work within a short amount of time? What does that say about what they really saw?



The witnesses either had a glorious vision or felt the plates and turned the plates over with their hands.

If they felt that Joseph Smith was no longer a prophet they would leave the church. But they never denied their experience when they either saw the vision or felt the plates.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
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Re: For Why Me - Stepping Outside

Post by _Fence Sitter »

why me wrote:
Fence Sitter wrote:
How much stock did the three witnesses actually put into their claim of an angel appearing to them if by 1837 they had left the Church. Really? An angel appears to them to verify that this is a prophet of God and he is doing his work and yet they leave both the prophet and the work within a short amount of time? What does that say about what they really saw?



The witnesses either had a glorious vision or felt the plates and turned the plates over with their hands.

If they felt that Joseph Smith was no longer a prophet they would leave the church. But they never denied their experience when they either saw the vision or felt the plates.


Do you agree that some of them no longer felt that Joseph Smith was a prophet? If so why would that belief be dismissed and not their witness?

You have not explained how they could possibly experience such things and still leave the Church. Wouldn't the logical thing to do if they felt Joseph Smith was no longer a prophet be to stay and try and save the Church? How does leaving it save it? Clearly they felt their experiences as witnesses were not more valid than their reasons for leaving the Church. Their actions alone are a denial of what they claimed. The three claimed to see an angel and yet they abandoned the Church. Whitmer went so far as to claim a revelation that Joseph was a fallen prophet. These are not the actions of men who held firm in a belief in the one true church, its prophet and his scripture. These are not the actions of men who truly believed they had received a witness from God. These are the actions of men who have misled or lied about their witnesses and do not want to admit it. These are the actions of men who want to leave an organization with which they no longer agree or have been driven from.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_why me
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Re: For Why Me - Stepping Outside

Post by _why me »

Fence Sitter wrote:
Do you agree that some of them no longer felt that Joseph Smith was a prophet? If so why would that belief be dismissed and not their witness?
.


We are all human. I can see them up close with Joseph Smith. And they felt that Joseph Smith no longer was acting as a prophet. But that is their opinion. And this is one reason why they still flirted around with Mormon related faiths. They could not give it up totally because of the experience that they had.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
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Re: For Why Me - Stepping Outside

Post by _Fence Sitter »

why me wrote:
Fence Sitter wrote:
Do you agree that some of them no longer felt that Joseph Smith was a prophet? If so why would that belief be dismissed and not their witness?
.


We are all human. I can see them up close with Joseph Smith. And they felt that Joseph Smith no longer was acting as a prophet. But that is their opinion. And this is one reason why they still flirted around with Mormon related faiths. They could not give it up totally because of the experience that they had.


We are not talking about human experience by itself here rather the claim of a divine one experienced by humans. It is not like they could just shrug their shoulders and say "Oh well God must have made a mistake." One does not "flirt around" with a divine witness unless it really wasn't all that divine.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_honorentheos
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Re: For Why Me - Stepping Outside

Post by _honorentheos »

why me wrote:I don't see it your way at all. It seems that martin had a beautiful experience. Since Joseph Smith already seen the vision, he could only say that what he said about seeing it again. For martin it was his first vision. Thus, for Joseph Smith it was the same vision.

The key word is vision, why me. If it had been a physical manifestation, then Joseph would not have any reason to doubt that Martin was seeing the same things. In other words, it was not the same sort of experience as two people sitting together and having an angel present them with the plates and other objects.

I think that fence sitter's point is a very important one, as you already know from my threads on MDD. You probably already know my view - that Joseph, Oliver, and David were knowing manipulating Martin Harris via pretending to see what Martin could not and each used this to varied effect to the end of their lives. This being to their personal advantage in the case of Joseph and David, or at a minimum avoiding the extreme damage it would have caused them to be proven as actively defrauding Harris out of his farm as well as hundreds of others via pretending to revelation they did not actually have.

If you read the quote I shared and are familiar, you'll note that Joseph's history was written during a period of time when Harris had left the church. My opinion is that the wiggle-words we see Joseph using are there precisely to protect him in case Harris were to come back and say he had not been privy to the revelation. Either way, he gives us a pretty clear description that supports the later claims that it was a spiritual experience and not a physical manifestation.

Which, again, is why the witnesses are not a primary consideration when questioning the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. It's at best a subjective experience which is contradicted by the same persons at different times in their lives.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
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Re: For Why Me - Stepping Outside

Post by _moksha »

Fence Sitter wrote:One does not "flirt around" with a divine witness unless it really wasn't all that divine.


What if they sought a similar life experience to the one they enjoyed rather than a supernatural occurrence?
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
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