"don't embarrass yourself by asking about metallurgy..."

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_mms
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"don't embarrass yourself by asking about metallurgy..."

Post by _mms »

In what is alleged to be Elder Holland's response to former Stake President, Thomas Phillips' questions, we find this statement:

So do what you want, Tom, but don’t embarrass yourself by asking about metallurgy or archeology or horses. The discussion about the power and promise of the Book of Mormon went light years beyond that a long time ago...

It seems so strange to me--any non-Mormon to have considered the question finds the Book of Mormon to be fiction based, in part, on metallury and archeology and horses. How does Elder Holland (allegedly) not see that the embarrassment would more readily be on the part of the believer? I am continually amazed at how completely backwards true believers imagine things. Why can he not admit that it appears by all accounts of actual science that the Book of Mormon simply did not happen and that although it may appear embarrassing to those who put their faith in science, he puts his faith in Moroni's Promise? Why does he actually have to (allegedly) suggest that it is EMBARRASSING to use the obvious methods to test the authenticity of a purported history?

And man, it appears if the following account is accurate, Elder Holland really doubled down on the Book of Mormon in 1994/1995--from Note 1 of Thomas Phillips' original letter to Elder Holland (found here: http://exmormon.org/d6/drupal/Letter-to ... -of-Mormon ):

In 1994, Elder Holland declared: "Let me quote a very powerful comment from President Ezra Taft Benson, who said, “The Book of Mormon is the keystone of [our] testimony. Just as the arch crumbles if the keystone is removed, so does all the Church stand or fall with the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. The enemies of the Church understand this clearly. This is why they go to such great lengths to try to disprove the Book of Mormon, for if it can be discredited, the Prophet Joseph Smith goes with it. So does our claim to priesthood keys, and revelation, and the restored Church..." "To hear someone so remarkable say something so tremendously bold, so overwhelming in its implications, that everything in the Church — everything — rises or falls on the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and, by implication, the Prophet Joseph Smith’s account of how it came forth, can be a little breathtaking. It sounds like a “sudden death” proposition to me. Either the Book of Mormon is what the Prophet Joseph said it is or this Church and its founder are false, fraudulent, a deception from the first instance onward." "Either Joseph Smith was the prophet he said he was, who, [1] after seeing the Father and the Son, [2] later beheld the angel Moroni, [3] repeatedly heard counsel from his lips, eventually [4] receiving at his hands a set of ancient gold plates which [5] he then translated according to the gift and power of God—or else he did not. And if he did not, in the spirit of President Benson’s comment, he is not entitled to retain even the reputation of New England folk hero or well-meaning young man or writer of remarkable fiction. No, and he is not entitled to be considered a great teacher or a quintessential American prophet or the creator of great wisdom literature. If he lied about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, he is certainly none of those." "I am suggesting that we make exactly that same kind of do-or-die, bold assertion about the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the divine origins of the Book of Mormon. We have to. Reason and rightness require it. Accept Joseph Smith as a prophet and the book as the miraculously revealed and revered word of the Lord it is or else consign both man and book to Hades for the devastating deception of it all, but let’s not have any bizarre middle ground about the wonderful contours of a young boy’s imagination or his remarkable facility for turning a literary phrase. That is an unacceptable position to take—morally, literarily, historically, or theologically." - Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland, “True or False,” New Era, June 1995, Page 64 (Excerpted from a CES Symposium address given at Brigham Young University on August 9, 1994.)
_bcspace
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Re: "don't embarrass yourself by asking about metallurgy..."

Post by _bcspace »

It's quite telling how one admits that this is alleged to be Holland's words but one proceeds on the notion that this is true.
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_Tobin
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Re: "don't embarrass yourself by asking about metallurgy..."

Post by _Tobin »

It wouldn't make any difference. If tomorrow they discovered pre-columbian horse remains, iron swords, and identified the ancient city of Zarahemla, you still wouldn't be Mormon. Mormonism requires faith and a personal witness of Jesus Christ inorder to believe and follow it. That is what the Book of Mormon asks of its readers and so finding things like horse remains means nothing at all.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_mms
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Re: "don't embarrass yourself by asking about metallurgy..."

Post by _mms »

bcspace wrote:It's quite telling how one admits that this is alleged to be Holland's words but one proceeds on the notion that this is true.


What does it tell? Please, do tell. And are you embarrassed by this if it is in fact Elder Holland's statement? Or are you going to hedge? You know, just in case?
_mms
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Re: "don't embarrass yourself by asking about metallurgy..."

Post by _mms »

Tobin wrote:It wouldn't make any difference. If tomorrow they discovered pre-columbian horse remains, iron swords, and identified the ancient city of Zarahemla, you still wouldn't be Mormon. Mormonism requires faith and a personal witness of Jesus Christ inorder to believe and follow it. That is what the Book of Mormon asks of its readers and so finding things like horse remains means nothing at all.


"Finding [insert any evidence contra to Book of Mormon here] means nothing at all," right Tobin?
_Tobin
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Re: "don't embarrass yourself by asking about metallurgy..."

Post by _Tobin »

mms wrote:
Tobin wrote:It wouldn't make any difference. If tomorrow they discovered pre-columbian horse remains, iron swords, and identified the ancient city of Zarahemla, you still wouldn't be Mormon. Mormonism requires faith and a personal witness of Jesus Christ inorder to believe and follow it. That is what the Book of Mormon asks of its readers and so finding things like horse remains means nothing at all.
"Finding [insert any evidence contra to Book of Mormon here] means nothing at all," right Tobin?
mms - Real scientists don't disprove religious texts. So don't speak non-sense. There is no counter evidence of the Book of Mormon put forward scientifically. There is simply scientific evidence (or a lack thereof) misused by both proponents and opponents of Mormonism to "prove" their arguments.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_mms
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Re: "don't embarrass yourself by asking about metallurgy..."

Post by _mms »

I think I understand your need to believe as much, Tobin. Good luck with that.
_bcspace
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Re: "don't embarrass yourself by asking about metallurgy..."

Post by _bcspace »

It's quite telling how one admits that this is alleged to be Holland's words but one proceeds on the notion that this is true.

What does it tell? Please, do tell. And are you embarrassed by this if it is in fact Elder Holland's statement? Or are you going to hedge? You know, just in case?


It tells us that the OP is hedging by inserting the fact that it is alleged just in case it turns out all his conclusions are based on a lie and someone notices it.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_mms
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Re: "don't embarrass yourself by asking about metallurgy..."

Post by _mms »

Hang on, BC, I am crawling around the Book of Mormon, get back to you as soon as I am done.
_DarkHelmet
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Re: "don't embarrass yourself by asking about metallurgy..."

Post by _DarkHelmet »

Tobin wrote:Mormonism requires faith and a personal witness of Jesus Christ inorder to believe and follow it. That is what the Book of Mormon asks of its readers and so finding things like horse remains means nothing at all.


I agree. Mormons don't really care about evidence. The Book of Mormon could take place on Mars and you could still use Moroni's promise to know it is true. It doesn't matter where the story takes place because nobody should be looking for scientific evidence anyway.
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die."
- Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775
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