Treehugger, on MAD, happened to start a thread which lasted quite long for a thread that was attacking the MADites DemiGod Scott Gordon.
Anywho, Scott Gordon, made claims about Joseph Smith's plural marriages being talked about in the Ensign, he also made claims about Joseph Smith using the stone in a hat method. Treehugger, took Gordon to task on the references Gordon provided.
4 out of the 10 total references support Gordon claim.
And below is a screen cap of Gordon's response. Gordon's response is essentially, that it does not matter that he deliberately provided false information.
It should be no surprise that the thread is locked, what is surprising is that the thread lasted 2 pages before being locked.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
Another common tactic [of anti-mormons] is to claim that the Church is hiding the information 2 quick examples. Many are upset when they learn that Joseph Smith practiced plural marriage. Everybody knows Brigham Young practiced plural marriage, but if Joseph Smith did it that’s bad and the Church must be hiding it. Or they learn that Joseph Smith “may” have used a hat and a seer stone when translating the Book of Mormon. The typical claim is that the Church has been this or has been dishonest about it.
Here is a short list of where you can read about Joseph Smith’s marriages. 2007 “teachings of Presidents, Joseph Smith vii-xiii Ensign, Aug 92 page 30, Dec 78 page 42, feb 77 page 48, New Era dec 73 page 7, DC section 132 1843 that talks about plural marriage.
As far as translation with a stone in a hat: Ensign Jan 97, page 36 Jul 93, page 61 Jan 88, page 6-13 Sep 77. page 79 Friend, Sep 74, page 7, that talks about that.
So you’ll also note the childrens magazine entry. That fact that you may not have heard about something in a Sunday school lesson does not mean it is hidden. Too many members believe the Church teaches history in Sunday School lessons, that is not what “we” do. We use examples from history to teach Gospel Principles.
The following addresses Gordons claim of reading about Joseph Smith plural marriage. I found the appropriate Ensign and word did a word search, the underlined part is Gordon citation and the black text is what is in the article and the red is an analysis of the text.
2007 “teachings of Presidents, Joseph Smith vii-xiii “This book also does not discuss plural marriage. The doctrines and principles relating to plural marriage were revealed to Joseph Smith as early as 1831. The Prophet taught the doctrine of plural marriage, and a number of such marriages were performed during his lifetime.” This source does not indicate to the reader that Joseph Smith, himself, entered into, plural/polygamist marriages. This source only lets the reader know that "a number" of plural marriages were performed during Joseph Smith lifetime, but the source does not indicate who entered into those marriages
Ensign, Aug 92 page 30, “Her great trial came when the prophet revealed to Emma that they would be required to live the ancient law of Abraham—plural marriage. Emma suffered deeply hurt feelings because of it. While she agreed with this doctrine at times, at other times she opposed it. Years later, Emma is purported to have denied that any such doctrine was ever introduced by her husband. In later years, Emma apparently never spoke of the sacred ordinances they had received. She would have been under covenant not to do so.” This source is does better at indicating Joseph Smith may have entered into plural/polygmaist marriages, but the author flatly rejects Emma Smith's claim it never happened, thus it becomes who to believe; it is interesting that the author does not provide any evidence that Emma Smith "would have been under covenant" not to admit that Joseph Smith entered into plural/polygamist marriages.
Ensign jan 89 page 30, In Nauvoo, the Knight group faced and passed another great test of faith. The Prophet introduced several doctrines relating to the temple including the temple ceremonies and plural marriage, which some could not accept. 20 But the Knights received the teachings. They helped to finish the temple and then performed baptisms for the dead. By early 1846, more than twenty adults in the Knight families had received their temple endowments and sealings. Four of Father and Polly Knight’s children entered into plural marriage. This source does not inform the reader that Joseph Smith, himself, entered into plural/polygamist marriages.
Ensign Dec 78 page 42, ” In obedience to the command of the living prophet, Newel and Elizabeth Ann gave their daughter Sarah Ann in marriage to Joseph Smith.” A direct and straightforward acknowledgment.
Ensign feb 77 page 48, “Then, along with economic privation and an absent father, was for some the institution of plural marriage. Starting during Joseph Smith’s own lifetime but limited to a few dozen families until its official announcement in 1852, plural marriage brought a powerful new challenge to the equanimity of Latter-day Saint family life.” Once again, another source which does not inform the reader that Joseph Smith, himself, entered into plural/polygamist marriages. However, if based on this vague and nonspecific text, the reader is suppose to realize that Joseph Smith entered into plural/polygamist marriages, then, based on the following is the reader suppose to know and understand that Joseph Smith had sexual relations with his plural/polygamist wives … “In the words of Professor Eugene Campbell of Brigham Young University, “Many of the normal problems of marriage, such as finance, personality adjustment, sexual relationships, jealousies, child-rearing and discipline were all magnified in plural marriages.”
New Era dec 73 page 7, “The great prophet Elias, whom Joseph Fielding Smith says is Noah (See Answers to Gospel Questions [Deseret Book Co.: 1957], vol. 3, p. 138), appeared and bestowed upon their heads the keys of the dispensation of Abraham, or in other words, as Elder Bruce R. McConkie says in Mormon Doctrine (2nd ed. [Bookcraft: 1966], p. 219.), the keys of celestial and plural marriage. Again, not indication that Joseph Smith entered into plural/polygamist marriages.
DC section 132 1843 that talks about plural marriage. Apparently the position is, that it is self evident in Section 132 that Joseph Smith was a polygamist or had entered into plural marriages.
Granted Gordon may have been limited by time, but only one of the citations he lists specifically addresses Joseph Smith entering in plural marriages. As for the rest, they are dubious at best, they do not provide the read with the knowledge that Joseph Smith entered in to plural marriages.
Ensign Jan 97, page 36, presumbably the article is "By the Gift and Power of God". First the term "hat" does not appear in this issue of the Ensign. As for the article the terms "seer stone", "divine insturmentalities" and "Urim and Thummim" are mentioned, but there is no indication of Joseph Smith placing his face in a hat.
Jul 93, page 61; The details of this miraculous method of translation are still not fully known. Yet we do have a few precious insights. David Whitmer wrote: “Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.” (David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, Richmond, Mo.: n.p., 1887, p. 12.)
Jan 88, page 6-13; presumed article "A New Prophet and a New Scripture: The Coming Forth of the Book of Mormon" hat is not mentioned, but Urim and Thummim is. But no face in hat method.
Sep 77. page 79 presumed article "“By the Gift and Power of God” "“Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light. And in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe. And when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God and not by any power of man. The characters I speak of are the engravings on the golden plates from which the book was translated.” 11
Friend, Sep 74, page 7, presumed article "A Peaceful Heart" No mention of a hat. Seer Stone and Urim and Thummim mentioned.
So only 2 out of 5 claimed sources indicate Jospeh Smith placed his face in a hat. Once again, Gordon may have been limited by time, but clearly he provides references which do not support his claim.
OMG... Unbelievable. I see they also locked the thread where all this started. ...the same thread they banned me.
Did you notice how they tried to derail the thread with BS CFR calls?
Treehugger followed their rules...played their game. .. did the whole CFR bullcrap....and now the thread will just goes away. I suspect treehugger And paerider will be convenently banned as well. Unbelievable.
"Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn’t participate enthusiastically." - Robert Kirby
Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer. -- Henry Lawson
cwald wrote:OMG... Unbelievable. I see they also locked the thread where all this started. ...the same thread they banned me.
Did you notice how they tried to derail the thread with BS CFR calls?
Treehugger followed their rules...played their game. .. did the whole CFR bullcrap....and now the thread will just goes away. I suspect treehugger And paerider will be convenently banned as well. Unbelievable.
Not really unbelievable. This is par for the course.
Always follow the footnotes. They are most always very enlightening as to the mind of the apologists.
I detest my loose style and my libertine sentiments. I thank God, who has removed from my eyes the veil... Adrian Beverland
Now they started a thread just on my one comment...I'm going to get banned altogether. Damnit.
"Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn’t participate enthusiastically." - Robert Kirby
Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer. -- Henry Lawson
cwald wrote:Did you notice how they tried to derail the thread with BS CFR calls?
Even worse, they were probably acquainted with the references themselves.
I did like Calmoriah mentioning how busy Scott was with all the political insanity. It's enough to give him Bain damage.
Yeah. No kidding. The other thread....THE THIRD thread today on this topic today is not going well. I guess it is my fault that I didn't know about polygamy and polyandry until I was 35 is because I failed to read d&c 132. Its all spelled out right there. -sigh-
"Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn’t participate enthusiastically." - Robert Kirby
Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer. -- Henry Lawson
The Church needs to realise that people like Scott paint the Church in a very bad light. It comes across that the Church needs to duck, dive, hide, fudge and mislead people about its history and teachings.
He is either deliberately misleading or is incompetent. Either way the Church needs to act before more members are lost as a result of Scott's apologetics.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator