COB/Corporate Mormonism

[_sock puppet]

Religion is at its best at the retail level.

I grew up from age 3 until going off to college at age 18, those 15 years, in one and the same Mormon ward. It was a warm social environment. Most everyone was second or third generation in the community that went from two to three wards in those 15 years.

GC weekends were weekends 'off'. They were perhaps two of the three times a year we got KFC chicken at our house. We'd do yard work. During conference sessions, only people that were over 55 were tuned in watching on TV, and it was sort of on in the background for most of them.

You hated being assigned to the Church magazine drive. Hardly anyone subscribed. So you'd come across as a nag.

There were the typical Sunday meetings, but the real focus of the ward was on the auxiliaries and during the week functions. There was always something being planned.

Most of the Primary and Sunday School, even Aaronic Priesthood, classes were taught 'off' manual, not following it. I recall teachers having to explain a time or two when discussion would challenge a point, "that's what it says here in the manual." That would usually allow the teacher then to continue on.

On the rare occasion I went to a different ward, particularly if it was not the other one or two wards in our little hamlet, there would be differences. The bigger the city it was in, the more that the other ward seemed cold, officious in how meetings were conducted, and the more homogenous the way people dressed and looked as compared to our rural ward.

This began changing in the 1970s. COB began creeping in slowly. Then, at 18, off to BYU I went. That was a cultural shock dose of COB Mormonism. A mission was like the Empire Strikes Hard compared to Mayberry USA Mormonism I had experienced growing up. Tolerance of others, gentle theology (with its quirks) was giving way to rigidity, and focus on numbers.

I know many here bristle when I use the term "LDS Inc", but that captures for me so much of what has gone wrong with Mormonism in the last 40 years. The COB has sent a cookie-cutter out to all SPs and bishops, hoping to create little Mormon units. The inviting, retail level Mormonism I knew growing up has been snuffed out by the corporate version.

LDS Inc. Pfft.

[_zeezrom]

I'm slowly beginning to realize what a frightening beast that correlation is. It was the only way I had ever known. I grew up in the beast. I only barely remember the broken up meetings prior to the 3-hr blocks on Sunday. Living in the beast makes it difficult to see what it really is.

It's a corporate feeling but also has that cold, soviet feel as well.

[_why me]

This began changing in the 1970s. COB began creeping in slowly. Then, at 18, off to BYU I went. That was a cultural shock dose of COB Mormonism. A mission was like the Empire Strikes Hard compared to Mayberry USA Mormonism I had experienced growing up. Tolerance of others, gentle theology (with its quirks) was giving way to rigidity, and focus on numbers.

I know many here bristle when I use the term "LDS Inc", but that captures for me so much of what has gone wrong with Mormonism in the last 40 years. The COB has sent a cookie-cutter out to all SPs and bishops, hoping to create little Mormon units. The inviting, retail level Mormonism I knew growing up has been snuffed out by the corporate version.

LDS Inc. Pfft.

The church has grown world wide and it has world wide responsibilities. We need to remember that most members are not rich. In fact, many are quite poor. My daughter is a missionary in Russia, the members she has met are not upper middle class. They get low salaries when compared to the american salary. Thus, the church needs to allocate its assets in profitable ventures to raise income for itself and the members.

The world has become poorer and so have the LDS members. However, I will agree with you about the numbers game. I don't like it either. But to assume the church is in corporate mode is not right.

[_why me]

It's a corporate feeling but also has that cold, soviet feel as well.

Obviously you haven't been to a ward event in a long time. Usually, such events are people centered with fellowship and love. My daughter in the UK have a great bunch of YSA to hang out with. And they are far from corporate. Just young people having fun.

[_Drifting]

Thus, the church needs to allocate its assets in profitable ventures to raise income for itself and the members.

CFR that it's ventures are profitable.
(Show how much of the original billions invested in City Creek is forecast to be recouped).

If the Church was indeed a corporation then the board of Directors would have been fired long ago for not retaining 'customers' due to poor 'customer service'. It's a boys club run by boys who have been brought up in corporate environments.

At the last shareholders meeting (held last weekend) this board of Directors had no new ideas about getting 'new business' or 'reversing the losses of existing business'. They were still promoting an amorphous strategy that nobody really understands, believes, or is willing to get behind in any real, tangible way. LDS inc. is a dinosaur that hasn't been led effectively to cope with a changing world. It has lacked forward thinking, honest leadership for generations and the current crop are scrabbling around in the dark desperately trying to hold on to their jobs until pension day.

Not only are they inept, but when called out on their performance they have the audacity to point the finger of blame at the Shareholders themselves!

[Guest]

If the Church was indeed a corporation then the board of Directors would have been fired long ago for not retaining 'customers' due to poor 'customer service'. It's a boys club run by boys who have been brought up in corporate environments.

At the last shareholders meeting (held last weekend) this board of Directors had no new ideas about getting 'new business' or 'reversing the losses of existing business'. They were still promoting an amorphous strategy that nobody really understands, believes, or is willing to get behind in any real, tangible way. LDS inc. is a dinosaur that hasn't been led effectively to cope with a changing world. It has lacked forward thinking, honest leadership for generations and the current crop are scrabbling around in the dark desperately trying to hold on to their jobs until pension day.

Not only are they inept, but when called out on their performance they have the audacity to point the finger of blame at the Shareholders themselves!

Well, that is the point. It is not a corporation. It is a church with investments. Do you think that the LDS church is the only church with investments? Or with a chain of command?

http://www.emeraldinsight.com/journals. ... eid=869890

http://www.middleburyumc.org/EndowmentFund.htm

And the Adventist church?

http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.or ... tments.htm

So lets get real here.

[_Drifting]

Well, that is the point. It is not a corporation. It is a church with investments. Do you think that the LDS church is the only church with investments? Or with a chain of command?

Answer the CFR...

Thus, the church needs to allocate its assets in profitable ventures to raise income for itself and the members.

CFR that it's ventures are profitable.
(Show how much of the original billions invested in City Creek is forecast to be recouped).

[_why me]

Answer the CFR...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/ ... 5W20120812

It seems pretty good to me.

[_Drifting]

Answer the CFR...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/ ... 5W20120812

It seems pretty good to me.

But how do you know the ventures are profitable...?

From your linked article:

The Mormon church, meanwhile, appears to be decreasing transparency and member control of donations. New tithing slips give fewer donation options and come with an expanded disclaimer saying the church has sole discretion over spending, even though it will make "reasonable efforts" to follow donors' wishes.

Relying heavily on church records in countries that require far more disclosure than the United States, Cragun and Reuters estimate that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints brings in some $7 billion annually in tithes and other donations.

(emphasis mine)




Or are you suggesting "tithing" is a business venture...?

Again from the article you referenced:

If the Mormon church were a business, wealthy adherents like Mitt Romney would count as its dominant revenue stream.

(emphasis mine)

You really didn't read the article before referencing it, did you...

FOCUS ON BUSINESS AND BUILDINGS

Concerned or disgruntled current and former Mormons complain that the church spends too much on real estate and for-profit ventures, neglecting charity work.

The Mormon church has no hospitals and only a handful of primary schools. Its university system is limited to widely respected Brigham Young, which has campuses in Utah, Idaho and Hawaii, and LDS Business College. Seminaries and institutes for high school students and single adults offer religious studies for hundreds of thousands.

It counts more than 55,000 in its missionary forces, primarily youths focused on converting new members but also seniors who volunteer for its non-profits, such as the Polynesian Cultural Center, which bills itself as Hawaii's No. 1 tourist attraction, and for-profit businesses owned by the church.

The church has plowed resources into a multi-billion-dollar global network of for-profit enterprises: it is the largest rancher in the United States, a church official told Nebraska's Lincoln Journal Star in 2004, with other ranches and farms in Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, Australia and Great Britain, according to financial documents reviewed by Reuters.

Ranching and farm industry sources say they are well-run operations.

It also has a small media empire, an investment fund, and is developing a mall across from its Salt Lake City headquarters, which it calls an attempt to help revitalize the city rather than to make money. These enterprises are also part of a vast nest egg for tough times. The church expects wars and natural disasters before Christ returns to earth in the Second Coming, and members are encouraged to prepare by laying in stores of food. Farms and ranches are part of the church's own preparation.

"The church teaches its members to live within their means and put a little money aside for life's unexpected events. As a church, we live by the same principle," Purdy said. The rainy-day fund and operating budget rarely mix, officials say.

Cost-cutting is a top priority, church documents show. It has even laid off janitors and called on members to clean temples and meeting houses, but the buildout of temples continues, including one under construction in Rome.

Those temples take a lot of money to operate, Purdy points out, and many of the grand church buildings are short on congregants, says David Stewart, a physician who leads research group Cumorah.

"I have been to beautiful church buildings in Hungary and Ukraine, and Latvia and other places, and there are these huge buildings and 35 people there, and you say, how can this work financially? The math - it just doesn't work."

(emphasis mine)

So City Creek is a $5 billion attempt to 'revitalise' a small corner of downtown Salt Lake City "rather than to make money..."
Thank you 'why me' for reinforcing the point.

[_sansfoy]

Well, that is the point. It is not a corporation. It is a church with investments. Do you think that the LDS church is the only church with investments? Or with a chain of command?

I agree with you there, why me, it's just another church. Investments, bureaucracy, and the like.