?????Occult Context of Joseph Smith?????s 1823 Discovery of Gold Plates"

[_Nightlion]

I would not deny that Joseph couched his mission in folklore but not for the reasons historians are want to interprit that remove the power of godliness. A young man so seriously charged of God would, in my opinion disabuse the public mind with notions of cultural rhubarbs that he not be over run, killed or his family harmed. Thus he secures the peace to peruse his high purpose with a greater prospect of succes while demonstrating great wisdom even though he innadvdrtently set many a trained historian's heart a flutter.

[_Bazooka]

Where did 'ldsfaqs' go?

[_Fence Sitter]

While I appreciate the videos, I too would like to see a text version of these productions.

Do you think they would make a good book?

I really don't know. It is a bit difficult to envision from an audio version only, how it would come across as text. I just prefer reading to audio because text allows a great facility to carefully consider what is being said.

[_Equality]

I thought the video was very well done. Much of the information was familiar to me (having read Quinn's Early Mormonism and the Magic World View and Brooke's The Refiner's Fire), but there seems to still be a lot of ground on this issue left to explore, and Dan's video provides a nice summary. He succeeds in his mission to put the quest to obtain the plates in the broader cultural context of folk magic (in a way that, as Bob Loblaw points out, Bushman failed, or simply declined, to do).

One tidbit that struck me: I was aware that Joseph, Sr. had taken out the ad in the local newspaper to quell rumors about whether Alvin's bones had been dug up, but I did not realize that the date of the ad was so close in time to the date on which Joseph, Jr. was supposed to meet the treasure guardian at the hill. Nor had I ever considered that perhaps Joseph, Sr. had actually started the rumor about Alvin's bones as a pretext for digging them up so that Junior could take them with him to the hill as instructed by the guardian the year before. Insightful idea proposed by Dan there.

[_Fence Sitter]

One tidbit that struck me: I was aware that Joseph, Sr. had taken out the ad in the local newspaper to quell rumors about whether Alvin's bones had been dug up, but I did not realize that the date of the ad was so close in time to the date on which Joseph, Jr. was supposed to meet the treasure guardian at the hill. Nor had I ever considered that perhaps Joseph, Sr. had actually started the rumor about Alvin's bones as a pretext for digging them up so that Junior could take them with him to the hill as instructed by the guardian the year before. Insightful idea proposed by Dan there.

A very interesting aspect of this whole occult thing is the use of the terms 'Keys". In today's church the term 'key' is used to represent one who has the proper authority to carry out ordinances, to act here on earth in the name of God. When Joseph Smith was treasure hunting, the term 'keys' was a specific step the be performed as part of an occult ritual necessary to find buried treasure. In the case of the gold plates, when Moroni first instructed him on the necessary steps to obtaining them, one of those steps (keys) was to bring Alvin with him (Joseph Smith) the next year so Joseph Smith could obtain the plates. Alvin died before the next visit. It get murky on whether or not the rumors about digging up Alvin's body were started by others who were aware of the requirement to bring him or by Joseph Smith's family to cover up the fact they needed to bring the body. Either way, people put a lot of stock in the necessity of fulfilling the instructions to the letter even if it meant digging up Alvin's corpse.

It would be another two years before Joseph Smith could figure out who would be an acceptable replacement key for Alvin, which turned out to be Emma. I have always wondered if one of the ways Joseph Smith wooed Emma was to tell her that an angel told him she was the 'key' to getting the gold plates.

[_Maksutov]

One tidbit that struck me: I was aware that Joseph, Sr. had taken out the ad in the local newspaper to quell rumors about whether Alvin's bones had been dug up, but I did not realize that the date of the ad was so close in time to the date on which Joseph, Jr. was supposed to meet the treasure guardian at the hill. Nor had I ever considered that perhaps Joseph, Sr. had actually started the rumor about Alvin's bones as a pretext for digging them up so that Junior could take them with him to the hill as instructed by the guardian the year before. Insightful idea proposed by Dan there.

A very interesting aspect of this whole occult thing is the use of the terms 'Keys". In today's church the term 'key' is used to represent one who has the proper authority to carry out ordinances, to act here on earth in the name of God. When Joseph Smith was treasure hunting, the term 'keys' was a specific step the be performed as part of an occult ritual necessary to find buried treasure. In the case of the gold plates, when Moroni first instructed him on the necessary steps to obtaining them, one of those steps (keys) was to bring Alvin with him (Joseph Smith) the next year so Joseph Smith could obtain the plates. Alvin died before the next visit. It get murky on whether or not the rumors about digging up Alvin's body were started by others who were aware of the requirement to bring him or by Joseph Smith's family to cover up the fact they needed to bring the body. Either way, people put a lot of stock in the necessity of fulfilling the instructions to the letter even if it meant digging up Alvin's corpse.

It would be another two years before Joseph Smith could figure out who would be an acceptable replacement key for Alvin, which turned out to be Emma. I have always wondered if one of the ways Joseph Smith wooed Emma was to tell her that an angel told him she was the 'key' to getting the gold plates.

There's also this:

http://www.masonicdictionary.com/key.html

[_Joe Geisner]

I am excited for Dan in creating these videos and the positive reception by participants on this discussion board.

Many people have called for Dan to put out some kind of text. I am not so sure I would want Dan spending his time on doing such a project. The amount of time Dan spends on these videos is quite impressive and the potential of people he can connect with in this medium is mind boggling. Dan does not need to reach old farts like myself who like reading scholarly papers, he needs to reach young people. This is what John Dehlin did with podcasts. On a daily basis I meet people who have heard about John's Mormon Stories and are reconsidering their belief structure. Dan's videos have the same potential on youtube.

Now I am ready to put on my slicker for the rotten tomato's

[_Chap]

I am excited for Dan in creating these videos and the positive reception by participants on this discussion board.

Many people have called for Dan to put out some kind of text. I am not so sure I would want Dan spending his time on doing such a project. The amount of time Dan spends on these videos is quite impressive and the potential of people he can connect with in this medium is mind boggling. Dan does not need to reach old farts like myself who like reading scholarly papers, he needs to reach young people. This is what John Dehlin did with podcasts. On a daily basis I meet people who have heard about John's Mormon Stories and are reconsidering their belief structure. Dan's videos have the same potential on youtube.

Now I am ready to put on my slicker for the rotten tomato's

1. I hate to break it to you ... but there are young people who not only read scholarly papers, but also write them. Scholarship isn't dying out, you know, even if the number of people who actually do it is always likely to remain small.

2. I'd like a text because I don't want to commit the time to sit through a video. A text, however, enables me to absorb the same information in ... oooh, maybe 1/5th of the time. You think young people have more time to spare than older ones?

[_thews]

Dan,

I watched the whole thing. I learned a lot of things I didn't know. Really good job for the most part, but I do have some constructive criticism:

The aspect of Joseph Smith's Jupiter Talisman wasn't mentioned, nor the tie to Francis Barrett's book The Magnus, which has the break in the seal. What you stated about the dates and times used correlating to Jupiter, further define that the Jupiter Talisman explained by Mormon scholar Dr. Reed C. Durham was owned by Joseph Smith, because it makes sense he (a money-digger) would own it.

The digging up of Alvin seemed to paint Joseph Smith Sr. as the guilty party, when I was under the impression the real culprit (who dug up Alvin) wasn't/isn't known.

Sally Chase wasn't mentioned. Using the green stone of Sally Chase is how Joseph Smith found his first (white) stone, making the green stone owned by her the mother of all Mormon seer stones.

No mention of Joseph Smith being denied entrance into the Methodist church in 1828 for being a practicing necromancer, including the references to "bleeding ghosts" (throats cut) which has other references.

No mention of the black sheep with its throat cut to bleed in the circle around the treasure dig to appease the evil treasure guardians.

Luman Walter was skimmed over, but was a far greater influence on Joseph Smith before (1829) with regard to Mesmerism.

Things I learned:

I didn't know there was a documented reference to the "Urim and Thummim" being placed in the stone box, clearly defining them as the Nephite Interpreters; completely separate from Joseph Smith's seer stones.

Abner Cole is considered "anti" to TBM's and they discount every word he printed. These accounts were all in or about 1830, so in order for Abner to be the one guilty of telling lies, he would have to be speaking for others incorrectly. They didn't object to what was printed, making the accounts true.

All-in-all great job.