Don Bradley on MormonThink

[_Mary]

You know what Don. I've gone through that Future Missionary site for a good few hours now. I just don't get your problem with it. I really don't. Do you know for sure these guys are trying to dissuade 'kids' from going on a mission? I don't.
I thought most of it was fairly innocuous with a pretty realistic rundown of problematic issues that these 'kids' might face when they are actually on their mission.

If the popularity of the Book of Mormon Musical over here in the UK is anything to go by then investigators are going to possibly know more about problematic issues of Mormon History than Missionaries do. That's just crazy. As a missionary I taught a whole bunch of historical information that was incorrect. Unknowingly, I lied to people. I taught that Joseph Smith saw 2 beings when he was 14. I taught that he was guilty of no serious sin other than a bit of light mindedness and frivolity. I taught that he saw Peter, James and John and John the Baptist and that they restored the keys of the Priesthood. I taught that the church was the only one with the 'proper' authority. I taught that the Book of Mormon was the word of God as was the Pearl of Great Price and that Joseph translated them 'by the gift and power of God' with a nice picture to go with it that showed Joseph and Oliver looking at Gold Plates. This was duplicitous.

The Church needs to change the way it teaches converts, heck it is still teaching that black people are 'cursed' with a dark skin for wickedness.

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?h ... 94610aRCRD

You assume that these guys are ex-mormon. Are you sure? Do any of us know? If they say they are active members (there are 3 right?) then maybe they are.

The biggest problem with this is as you say the new age of missionaries. They are kids, and so the even bigger question we have to ask is whether kids should be out preaching, away from parents at such a young age. Is the message of Mormonism so fragile that only young idealistic kids who know very little about it can be trusted to spread the message.

[_Kishkumen]

Kishkumen,

Upthread I saw that you suggested to thews that he "buzz off" because he commented that MT was simply telling the truth to prospective missionaries. That said, I simply wish add my voice of support to MT for what they are doing, state that I wish someone had got to my three kids with this same kind of truth before they wasted two years trying to deceive people for and in behalf of the LDS Church - and then buzz off.

Thanks for listening.

No need to respond. I think I know what you would say.

bzzzzzz.

Well, I think that is a little different, isn't it, DrW?

All you are saying is that you wish your desires for your kids hadn't been frustrated by the interference of other forces.

I can sympathize with that.

The problem with thews is that he has gotten my point all wrong. It seems other people here, including thews, have the idea that it is OK for strangers to impose their idea of what constitutes the truth on minors, regardless of what the parents of those minors believe or think.

I also take issue with the use of deception in order to carry off that ignoble goal.

The question of whether every individual fact on that site is indeed a fact or not is entirely beside the point.

[_Flaming Meaux]

should my Baptist neighbors counter this by putting on a fake skeptics camp to dupe the atheist kids into religious indoctrination?

Hmmm... I wonder if I indoctrinated my children to be skeptics if they would be so unskeptical as to be taken in by a fake skeptics camp.

[_Kishkumen]

Jesus, thews. I wonder if you could make a point without being such a nasty bitch. Fer the love of god. So you think Kish is a hypocrite. Now stop sharpening your fangs and nails. Goddamnit.

It doesn't bother me in the least that thews thinks I am a hypocrite.

I find it baffling, but hardly offensive.

I think he is stuck on the fact that Don is my friend, and so he thinks my secret agenda here is to support my buddy, no matter what, and to support Mormonism. So, any objections I have to the site are, in his eyes, motivated by those factors, and not by my stated objections.

It is true that 1) Don is my friend.

I hope that never changes.

It is also true that 2) I am Mormon, but my definition of "Mormon" is such that I am entirely unconcerned with the agenda of the COB or my local ward. I am Mormon because I was born a Mormon. It is part of who I am, and I am not going to reject my identity.

My identity, however, is not something I feel dictates my inner beliefs and moral choices. I determine those things.

I am telling you, and this is completely honest, that when the local ward in their well-intentioned way made it clear that they thought our conforming to their ideas of what God wanted us to do trumped our own beliefs about what was best for our children, we walked out the door. I am not in favor of young missionaries, young priesthood holders, or even young baptized members of a religion.

In short, I don't agree with much of anything that the LDS Church dictates to kids other than the basic moral values they teach in Primary. But I believe it would be hypocritical for me to tell Mormons how to raise their kids when I claimed the right to raise my own in my way without their interference. I find it arrogant and intrusive of ex-Mormons to seduce teenagers into apostasy.

Reminds me of those damned New Atheists and their shallow insistence that they know better. Socrates would have had them for breakfast.

[_Mary]

Okay, so....I am/was an elementary (primary in the UK) school teacher. I was the lead coordinator for Religious Education. We taught kids about the 6 major faiths and each day had an assembly for worship. The school was multicultural. We tried to be as fair and neutral as possible. We saw it as our responsibility in the multicultural world that we live in to give a balanced education around the subject of religious education. We were sensitive enough to stepping on toes that (usually JW's) could have their children sit out on the assemblies - which they chose to. We didn't get parents jumping up and down that we were stepping on their toes in terms of the National Curriculum.

In Secondary School the kids get taught evolution. Is this stepping on fundamentalist toes who want us to believe that God created the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th and that the earth is only a few thousand years old?

How far do you go in protecting your kids from what you see as other world views and is it really protecting them to bring them up in a vacuum where they never get to question or meet with difficult and contradictory information, motives or the whatnot. And further, is it right to downright demonize those that choose a different path in their search for truth and who want to share their perspectives with others?

Is this a Utah thing?

[_Kishkumen]

I don't begrudge the people at either MormonThink or FutureMissionary their beliefs, nor their efforts to advocate for the way they view things. I wouldn't ask that they take down the information they've meticulously compiled. I'd just ask that they be honest about who is selecting the information and to what ends.

That's all.

Don

I think that it is both fair and desirable to expect honesty of those who advocate a particular position. My feelings about MormonThink are shaped by my own experience as a disillusioned Mormon coming to terms with the Corporation of the First Presidency and the history of Mormonism. I bristle at the idea that the Corporation claims the right to decide who is Mormon and who is not. I am also sad that history presents us with such a tangled and problematic picture of Mormonism's past that is so wildly at odds with the theological narrative.

The intersection between theology and history is a Gordian Knot. If theology drives history to the point of distorting the facts, then it is inevitable that the evidence will contradict the theology. Mormonism is especially grounded in its history, and the evidence of that history is super-abundant in comparison with the evidence for early Christianity, for example. The current correlated narratives are very unlike the evidence in a number of respects. The clash between theological history and academic history is inevitable, and the damage to the lives of LDS people has been and will be extensive.

[_Kishkumen]

Okay, so....I am/was an elementary (primary in the UK) school teacher. I was the lead coordinator for Religious Education. We taught kids about the 6 major faiths and each day had an assembly for worship. The school was multicultural. We tried to be as fair and neutral as possible. We saw it as our responsibility in the multicultural world that we live in to give a balanced education around the subject of religious education. We were sensitive enough to stepping on toes that (usually JW's) could have their children sit out on the assemblies - which they chose to. We didn't get parents jumping up and down that we were stepping on their toes in terms of the National Curriculum.

In Secondary School the kids get taught evolution. Is this stepping on fundamentalist toes who want us to believe that God created the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th and that the earth is only a few thousand years old?

How far do you go in protecting your kids from what you see as other world views and is it really protecting them to bring them up in a vacuum where they never get to question or meet with difficult and contradictory information, motives or the whatnot. And further, is it right to downright demonize those that choose a different path in their search for truth and who want to share their perspectives with others?

Is this a Utah thing?

Children in the United States may be home-schooled or go to a private religious school. The parents can even (in some states) get vouchers that will help them pay tuition in these private schools.

Of course, I would prefer and love it if every child received essentially the same public education, and that this education was of the highest quality. At the same time, I am unwilling to sacrifice my liberty in order to make sure that this happens. I realize that if I assent to the coercion of others, then someday the situation could be flipped and I would be the coerced party.

[_Stormy Waters]

In Secondary School the kids get taught evolution. Is this stepping on fundamentalist toes who want us to believe that God created the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th and that the earth is only a few thousand years old?

I had a high school teacher that intentionally started a debate with us students over evolution. He did it respectfully and tactfully. He invited the students to prepare themselves with counter arguments. The following class period students even came prepared with arguments they borrowed from the seminary teachers!
He let students say their piece, but it was not a even match. He must have been arguing the topic for years because before you could finish a sentence he was already ready with an answer.
Was that wrong? Should my parents have been outraged? Did they have a right to be outraged? (My parents taught me dinosaur bones were from other planets).
He persuaded me, and for years I believed the my religious beliefs had to be reconciled with evolution somehow.

[_Kishkumen]

So Kish will get pissed if anyone sets up a website (a website!) directed at youth that teaches things that are contrary to what Kish teaches them? That sounds overprotective at best and super cultish at worst.

Maybe a better solution is to teach kids to think critically and give them the freedom to consider websites that contain a variety of points of view, even deceptive ones like josephsmith.net and futuremissionary.com.

I agree with the ideal that children should be taught to think critically. In my own life, I try my best to teach my children to think well. It can be a big challenge. My kids lead a pretty normal, secular life. We have not indoctrinated them in any religion, but they do, for some reason or other, believe in God. The biggest differences between the way my kids are raised and the way many other kids are raised are that 1) we don't have cable or network television broadcasts in our home, and 2) we will not allow our children to make a life-commitment to a religion as children. On the positive side, as professors we value learning a great deal, so we encourage them to read and practice foreign languages and math on an almost daily basis.

[_Kishkumen]

I had a high school teacher that intentionally started a debate with us students over evolution. He did it respectfully and tactfully. He invited the students to prepare themselves with counter arguments. The following class period students even came prepared with arguments they borrowed from the seminary teachers!
He let students say their piece, but it was not a even match. He must have been arguing the topic for years because before you could finish a sentence he was already ready with an answer.
Was that wrong? Should my parents have been outraged? Did they have a right to be outraged? (My parents taught me dinosaur bones were from other planets).
He persuaded me, and for years I believed the my religious beliefs had to be reconciled with evolution somehow.

If they sent you to public school, then what right would they have to be outraged that the school sought to provide you the best secular education it had the resources to offer?

I will do my utmost as an individual voter to ensure that our kids get a quality secular education.