Don Bradley on MormonThink

[_Mayan Elephant]

"Cajoling"? Excuse me, but I did not cajole people into joining the LDS Church. Maybe that's what you did on your mission, but speak for yourself. Don't paint me with that brush.

maybe you should ask if equality was cajoled?

you are making a lot of assumptions about the site, and drawing conclusions that are not supported by ANY damned evidence. just as you are making assumptions about equality.

over on the other douchebag site they use that CFR thing. when i started here with a discussion about dehlin, there was a call for references about pancakes or waffles or some goddamn thing. maybe that is what we need from kish. CFR dude.

i think i get the whole argument from don and kish: the website says "future missionary" but if anyone really read it and considered it, they could logically be just a "prospective missionary."

www.prospectiveenglishspeakingmissionaryover18.com would be more appropriate.

[_Jaybear]

Yes, that is a popular justification here. "Well, the LDS Church has done something bad, so others should be able to do something bad to combat their bad." I am unimpressed with this argument, and I think it is a bad road to go down.

Your are mistaken. I did not say, suggest or imply that the deception of one justified the deception of the other. That was not my argument.

I was simply making a qualitative assessment of the deception that Don thinks he uncovered. Hence my use of the phrase "not so bad".

Do you disagree?

If not, then I suspect that your biggest concern is not the qualitative nature of the "deception", but the potential impact, which is that, upon learning the their religion, young adults might decide for themselves not to go on a missions. That is only a "problem" because the LDS Church has created a culture where many parents would be publicly embarrassed their children make a "choice" not to go on a mission or even "worse" leave the faith.

[_Kishkumen]

maybe you should ask if equality was cajoled?

We are having a discussion about a website that addresses the missionary experience as a whole, not Equality's personal experience. If he chooses to represent his personal experience as the general rule, am I to blame because he did so? Maybe he should just come out and say, "I resent the fact that I was cajoled into joining the Mormons." Don't sit there and say that all missionaries cajole their investigators, when that is not actually the case.

you are making a lot of assumptions about the site, and drawing conclusions that are not supported by ANY damned evidence. just as you are making assumptions about equality.

over on the other douchebag site they use that CFR thing. when i started here with a discussion about dehlin, there was a call for references about pancakes or waffles or some goddamn thing. maybe that is what we need from kish. CFR dude.

i think i get the whole argument from don and kish: the website says "future missionary" but if anyone really read it and considered it, they could logically be just a "prospective missionary."

http://www.prospectiveenglishspeakingmi ... over18.com would be more appropriate.

Maybe you should visit my other thread, where I PTR (Provide the References).

[_Kishkumen]

I was simply making a qualitative assessment of the deception that Don thinks he uncovered. Hence my use of the phrase "not so bad".

Do you disagree?

If not, then I suspect that your biggest concern is not the qualitative nature of the "deception", but the potential impact, which is that, upon learning the their religion, young adults might decide for themselves not to go on a missions. That is only a "problem" because the LDS Church has created a culture where many parents would be publicly embarrassed their children make a "choice" not to go on a mission or even "worse" leave the faith.

I certainly think the site could be worse. As it is, I think it is disingenuous and aimed at deconverting Mormon teenagers. The longer I look at it, the more convinced I become that this is the case.

[_cafe crema]

President Thomas S. Monson wrote:

“There are many ways to contact people. There are many ways to teach investigators.The best way for a mission to achieve its optimum productivity is to involve the members in the process of contacting, teaching, and fellowshipping. For missionaries to ask a member family 'Do you have any referrals for us?' will yield minimum results.

However, if the missionaries, in the comfortable setting of the member family's home discuss the plan of salvation, this provides answers to the universal questions of the human heart.
Where did I come from? Why am I here on Earth? Where do I go when I die?

Then, the stage is set for the penetrating questions.
First, whom do you know who has recently lost a loved one?
Second, whom do you know who has welcomed a newly born child to the family?
Third, whom do you know who has recently moved into the neighborhood?
Fourth, whom do you know who has experienced difficulty coping with their teenaged children?

Then, the Lord has provided the answers to the questions of those who have had these experiences. They are far more apt to respond favorably to the member family's invitation to learn.”

Hearse and ambulance chasers are the scum of proselytizers, so far the only ones I've actually had try it were from little non-denominational churches.

[_Jaybear]

I certainly think the site could be worse. As it is, I think it is disingenuous and aimed at deconverting Mormon teenagers. The longer I look at it, the more convinced I become that this is the case.

I don't disagree with you. Though I don't know whether the underlying agenda is to "deconvert" or simply provide young men and woman access to information they would not otherwise have so they can make a more informed decision about whether they should serve a mission, knowing that some may choose to leave the faith, and some may choose to serve. The latter agenda, does not seem to me to be nefarious at all.

That said, I don't believe that Don's objection to the site is based on principle, or that his moral outrage is genuine. He is after all, a full fledged card carrying member of an organization that engages in far more ethically/morally offensively deceptive behavior.

[_Brackite]

I really don't understand how I am supposed to be upset and angry at the web site futuremissionary.com when the LDS Church sends out males as young as 18 years of age out on missions.

[_Bob Loblaw]

I really don't understand how I am supposed to be upset and angry at the web site futuremissionary.com when the LDS Church sends out males as young as 18 years of age out on missions.

I'm not upset or angry. I just think the site isn't helpful or fair. I'm all for full disclosure for future missionaries. This ain't it.

[_Mayan Elephant]

We are having a discussion about a website that addresses the missionary experience as a whole, not Equality's personal experience. If he chooses to represent his personal experience as the general rule, am I to blame because he did so? Maybe he should just come out and say, "I resent the fact that I was cajoled into joining the Mormons." Don't sit there and say that all missionaries cajole their investigators, when that is not actually the case.

i am not sitting here saying that all missionaries cajole. i did not. does it happen? of course it happens.

where is the other thread? can you link me to it, please?

damn kish, i am trying to see this from your side and i am just not getting it. it really seems out of character compared to other things i have read on here from you. one thing you said on here that struck me was that you consider yourself, still, to be a Mormon. you have made choices for your family that are not mainstream from your ward or the stereotypical Mormon nuclear model, but you are still Mormon and identify as such. i feel similarly in many ways. i think it is a shame that what my family built, what i grew up with, what i identify as, has been hijacked by a bunch of assholes and turned into a teaparty corporate piece of crap.

calling it a piece of crap from where i sit, from where you sit, or from where the three creators of that site sit, does not make me, you, or them a predator on children or anti Mormon.

this thread will probably keep going. it has struck a nerve. monson has done a few things as leader that will mark his time as king of the kingdom - Prop 8, Let's Go Shopping, and lowering the age for missionaries. really, other than that, he has not done a goddamn thing. prop 8 was a trigger that set a lot of protests and conversations in motion. some of it led to changes. the Mall of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a monument that will never go away. it really is hinckley's legacy, but tommy cut the tape and inherited it and all it stands for.

now we have the lower age for missionaries. it is screwed up in so so so so many ways. that decision put what you call children, or minors, into play. the website did not do that, monson did. in fact, the website appeared a year after the surge. the website is not an anti-mormon unethical attack and it is not an ice cream truck in the park to lure kids to a predator. the website is what you said above, it is what three returned missionaries describe as the whole picture of the experience.

the crises that people experience when they confront the truth about their mission is much worse when they are on that mission or returned from a mission, compared to what they could experience in making the decision to go on a mission. you may know a few batshit crazy families that would turn a child to the streets for prostitution, crystal meth and gangbanging crime (i saw the episode of Gangland about the Mormon Crips) if they refuse to go on a mission. those families are not the norm, nor are they a reason to shelter other bright, balanced and normal young men and women from the truth.

in a nutshell. the creators of that site may have any number of motivations - but the content is not objectionable. the content is not conforming to what a sheltered youth would hear in seminary, but it is not untrue or objectionable.

[_Brackite]

I'm not upset or angry. I just think the site isn't helpful or fair. I'm all for full disclosure for future missionaries. This ain't it.

I really do not like the the LDS Church missionary program. I did serve a mission for the Church, but having looking back on it, I felt that I wasn't mature enough and emotional ready to do so. I believe that the Jehovah Witness Church missionary program is a lot better than the LDS Church missionary program. The Jehovah Witness Church missionary program has their adult members do the missionary work as a part time activity.