Marlin Jensen Q&A Audio: The Google "Great Apostasy"

[_RayAgostini]

That book is The Guinness Book of World Records which currently holds the world record for inspiring someone (Ray Agostini) beyond mortal calculation.

I get the hint, Kishkumen.

The majority of my 20-plus readings were done as a faithful Mormon. I could tell you of times when my heart "burned with testimony" of this book, during my mission, and after.

Why I Believe The Book of Mormon (long)

But go ahead and keep the mockery going.

[_RockSlider]

Dan Peterson can never "use" me, and my views and beliefs on the Book of Mormon can never be "bought", pro or con. Believe it or not, such beliefs stand independent of Dan Peterson, and any other living human being. Dan and I just happen to agree on this. It does somewhat bias me in favour of Dan, and I fully admit that it's because we agree so much about this incredible Book, which has been inspirational to me beyond mortal calculation.

Years back, I spent a lot of time in OAL religious chat rooms. I came to know some members of the RLDS, as it was just coming apart at the seams and moving quickly into the CoC. They were hard core orthodox Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith follows, who were basically abandoned by the church of their lives (3rd/4th generational). They ended up in the tiny Branch off organizations that fractured out of that deal. True to their faith, not following the organization.

This I can respect. Love and defend the Book of Mormon to the bitter end Ray. I have nothing bad to say about that. Now defend a business organization that claims the only rights to that book, and all the keys to your personal salvation, who builds the likes of my personal hobby horse favorite (the Jesus Mall), and I really have to scratch my head and wonder why.

Hyrum Andrus, “If you want to know your religion, you must study the men that knew and were close to Joseph Smith”. That’s when, how and under what spirit you’re beloved Book of Mormon was put together. The men of the church past BHR have steadily steered the church 180 degrees away from exactly that Ray … and you know it.

Embrace God, Embrace the Book of Mormon … you have my respect … embrace the Church of today … not so much. By their fruits you shall know them. This latest Swedish Rescue excitement is a very good example of the current fruits.

[_RayAgostini]

Hyrum Andrus, “If you want to know your religion, you must study the men that knew and were close to Joseph Smith”. That’s when, how and under what spirit you’re beloved Book of Mormon was put together. The men of the church past BHR have steadily steered the church 180 degrees away from exactly that Ray … and you know it.

Roberts did no such thing. He speculated, and played "Devil's Advocate". Show me any statement, anywhere, where Roberts denied the Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon. Come up with the goods, or shut up, Rock.

[_RockSlider]

The men of the church past BHR have steadily steered the church 180 degrees away from exactly that Ray … and you know it.

Roberts did no such thing. He speculated, and played "Devil's Advocate". Show me any statement, anywhere, where Roberts denied the Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon. Come up with the goods, or shut up, Rock.

I did not state very well, or you did not understand my statement (BHR is my hero, I was not saying anything negative about him). There is a book you must not have of his ... The Truth, The Way, The Light. Read his biography ... see a leadership that fought him and silenced him.

The Smith's (against all BHR stood for) continued to move towards a more Protestant church, with good old BRM picking up the reigns later on, and then turning the whole deal over to correlation (that even threw out BRM!).

So Ray, come up with the Goods that the church has evolved into or you shut up.

[_RayAgostini]

I did not state very well, or you did not understand my statement (BHR is my hero, I was not saying anything negative about him). There is a book you must not have of his ... The Truth, The Way, The Light. Read his biography ... see a leadership that fought him and silenced him.

Does that make Mormonism a "fraud"?

The Truth, The Way, The Life, An Elementary Treatise on Theology: The Masterwork of B. H. ROBERTS

The Smith's (against all BHR stood for) continued to move towards a more Protestant church, with good old BRM picking up the reigns later on, and then turning the whole deal over to correlation (that even threw out BRM!).

I don't think you've seriously considered Joseph Smith's views in entirety. What do you mean by "the Smith's" opposed BHR? And how could they oppose him when they were all dead before BHR was even born?

So Ray, come up with the Goods that the church has evolved into or you shut up.

My challenge still remains, Rock. Come up with one statement, just one, where Roberts denies the Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon.

[_sunstoned]

The "Great Apostasy", as foretold by the D&C, will occur within the LDS Church:

24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;

26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

27 Therefore, see to it that ye trouble not yourselves concerning the affairs of my church in this place, saith the Lord.

D&C 112

The voices of discontent, anger, bitterness, skepticism, cynicism, doubt, disbelief, are very well represented here.

Be of good cheer - you're fulfilling prophecy.

So this revelation was given within 20 years after the so called restoration. Is God such as poor manager that he can plan on his organization turning to s*** within a decade or so? There are NFL teams with a better track record than that.

[_RockSlider]

Does that make Mormonism a "fraud"?

Do you mean old RLDS Mormonism?, The branches that fragmented from that? Jeff's? The Corporation of the First President? Or the restored gospel of the dispensation of the fullness of times as finalized in the Navoo period?

I don't think you've seriously considered Joseph Smith's views in entirety. What do you mean by "the Smith's" opposed BHR? And how could they oppose him when they were all dead before BHR was even born?

joseph fielding smith, joseph f smith, joseph f mcconkie etc.

My challenge still remains, Rock. Come up with one statement, just one, where Roberts denies the Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon.

Ray, where in the above text have I suggested that Roberts denied the Book of Mormon? I was trying to point out that I support you 100% in your love and support of the Book, I just see that as being miles away from needing to support the Corporation of the First President.

[_RayAgostini]

So this revelation was given within 20 years after the so called restoration. Is God such as poor manager that he can plan on his organization turning to s*** within a decade or so? There are NFL teams with a better track record than that.

It was given in 1837. Do your sums.

[_RayAgostini]

joseph fielding smith, joseph f smith, joseph f mcconkie etc.

You've left out a key figure, Rock - Joseph Smith Jr.

Ray, where in the above text have I suggested that Roberts denied the Book of Mormon? I was trying to point out that I support you 100% in your love and support of the Book, I just see that as being miles away from needing to support the Corporation of the First President.

So you believe, as I do, that the Book of Mormon is Divinely Inspired? Maybe we're actually soul mates.

I've always felt 3 Nephi 27 applicable to the Church. But I don't condemn the Church, or the Church leaders. Like D.Michael Quinn, I've always felt they were the "oracles", even if imperfect, mouth pieces of God in their imperfection.

The real marvel of this whole thing is Joseph Smith, who once said that most of what we will learn about salvation and eternal life, will be learned well "beyond the veil", and that we now only have a glimpse of what is to come, and that all the judgements of God are NOT made known unto men.

“It is my meditation all the day, and more than my meat and drink, to know how I shall make the Saints of God comprehend the visions that roll like an overflowing surge before my mind. Oh! how I would delight to bring before you things which you never thought of! But poverty and the cares of the world prevent. …

“I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions: they cannot stand the fire at all. How many will be able to abide a celestial law, and go through and receive their exaltation, I am unable to say, as many are called, but few are chosen"

[_RockSlider]

You've left out a key figure, Rock - Joseph Smith Jr.

I was speaking of those at and after BHR's time, that steered the ship away from some Joseph Smith teachings.

So you believe, as I do, that the Book of Mormon is Divinely Inspired? Maybe we're actually soul mates.

I'm not as jiggy as you are for the Book. I do not believe it's historical, and hence it is not what it is claimed to be. If it's a novel with some good spiritual messages, so be it, but it's not a true history of an ancient people. If it works for you great.
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