Mission pres suggests apostates will be trodden to death?

[_Everybody Wang Chung]

I've known Kurt (the mission president) for years. The Kurt I used to know is definitely not the Kurt who wrote those letters.

I remember many years ago, Kurt's daughter died in a horrific accident: http://articles.latimes.com/2001/aug/30/local/me-40027

That was truly awful; I have a great deal of sympathy for him and his wife; no one should have to go through that.

Kurt has never been the same since, which is completely understandable. This tragedy also drove him much deeper into the Church where he was able to find great solace. I wonder if maybe his tone of harshness in the letters is a reflection and belief that he has to try everything possible to "save" this individual.

I'll cut Kurt a break, but his bringing up Alma 30:59-60 to suggest this would be the ultimate destiny of the former member he was trying to "save," was way out of line, especially for a MP.

Agreed.

[_Bazooka]

"Brother Apostate, I am writing you to confirm the Church's decision to excommunicate you for apostasy. Please would you attend Church on Sunday so the ward members can tread you to death? Kind regards President Plonker."

[_Rollo Tomasi]

I'll cut Kurt a break, but his bringing up Alma 30:59-60 to suggest this would be the ultimate destiny of the former member he was trying to "save," was way out of line, especially for a MP.

Agreed.

I can't help but wonder if during Kurt's 9 or so years as a stake president, as well as his time serving as bishop, he used this same argument when faced with a member trying to remove his/her name from the Church rolls, or anyone else who expressed unbelief that he thought was "apostate." The severity of Alma 30:59-60 would suggest Kurt didn't just 'pull it out of a hat' for the first time in this instance. I think this is why his file leader should tell him not to do this again. It's already gone viral, so it could be embarrassing for the institutional Church. It smacks very much of "cultish."

[_MsJack]

Does this ever happen though?

Not as much as it should. Perhaps this former member should report the MP to the police for making a death threat? Now that would reign in the MP very quickly, in my opinion.

Yeah. Seems to me, from the stories I've heard, that there are few repercussions for leaders who go over the line unless their misbehavior attracts bad PR. Otherwise they seem pretty well-protected and members have little recourse for protesting ecclesiastical abuse.

A few years ago, my husband's bishop asked him in an interview if he had married me because "he had to." He was implying that Paul must have knocked me up and then married me out of a sense of obligation. (I've only been pregnant twice in my life, I got married in 2003, and our first child was born in 2006. Do the math.). Guess he just couldn't fathom the notion of someone marrying outside of the temple for love.

I was pretty angry about this, and very tempted to talk to his stake president about it. We'd been married for six years at that point, so even if there had been any sexual sins in our past, it wouldn't have been any of this bishop's business. I decided to let it go unless he did it again.

Looking back, now I'm doubtful that talking to the SP would have done any good. Bishop is lucky I wasn't present for this interview.

[_Bazooka]

Girl, 3, Killed Following Her Father Across Road
Ventura County
August 30, 2001|TIMOTHY HUGHES
A 3-year-old girl was struck by a car and killed after climbing out of her father's SUV and following him across a road near Moorpark as he was helping another daughter whose truck had run out of gas.

Courtney Blickenstaff was pronounced dead at Simi Valley Hospital shortly after the accident, which occurred about 8:30 p.m. Tuesday, California Highway Patrol Officer Derek Kawai said.

The girl's father, Kurt Blickenstaff, had parked on the northbound shoulder of Moorpark Road, about a quarter-mile south of Tierra Rejada Road near Moorpark, Kawai said. The man's 19-year-old daughter Kelly had run out of gas going southbound on Moorpark Road and had called for help.

Kurt Blickenstaff crossed Moorpark Road and left Courtney behind with her 7-year-old sister. Courtney, who was not in a child safety seat, got out of the vehicle and was struck as she crossed the road, Kawai said.

The driver of the car that struck the toddler, Grace Kelly, 61, of Camarillo, was not cited.

"This is a nightmare you don't want to wish on anyone," Kawai said. "You turn your back for a second and this can happen."

Courtney was the youngest of six children, five girls and a boy, friends said.

Kurt Blickenstaff is a general surgeon at Pleasant Valley Hospital in Camarillo and a prominent member of the Mormon Church in Ventura County. In 2000, he was named Doctor of the Year at the hospital and is a past bishop of the church, friends said.

Gary Miller, a family friend, said church members and relatives offered the family support throughout the day at their home.

http://articles.latimes.com/2001/aug/30/local/me-40027

He will be carrying a burden of a lot of guilt.

[_MsJack]

Girl, 3, Killed Following Her Father Across Road
Ventura County
August 30, 2001|TIMOTHY HUGHES
A 3-year-old girl was struck by a car and killed after climbing out of her father's SUV and following him across a road near Moorpark as he was helping another daughter whose truck had run out of gas.

Courtney Blickenstaff was pronounced dead at Simi Valley Hospital shortly after the accident, which occurred about 8:30 p.m. Tuesday, California Highway Patrol Officer Derek Kawai said.

The girl's father, Kurt Blickenstaff, had parked on the northbound shoulder of Moorpark Road, about a quarter-mile south of Tierra Rejada Road near Moorpark, Kawai said. The man's 19-year-old daughter Kelly had run out of gas going southbound on Moorpark Road and had called for help.

Kurt Blickenstaff crossed Moorpark Road and left Courtney behind with her 7-year-old sister. Courtney, who was not in a child safety seat, got out of the vehicle and was struck as she crossed the road, Kawai said.

The driver of the car that struck the toddler, Grace Kelly, 61, of Camarillo, was not cited.

"This is a nightmare you don't want to wish on anyone," Kawai said. "You turn your back for a second and this can happen."

Courtney was the youngest of six children, five girls and a boy, friends said.

Kurt Blickenstaff is a general surgeon at Pleasant Valley Hospital in Camarillo and a prominent member of the Mormon Church in Ventura County. In 2000, he was named Doctor of the Year at the hospital and is a past bishop of the church, friends said.

Gary Miller, a family friend, said church members and relatives offered the family support throughout the day at their home.

http://articles.latimes.com/2001/aug/30/local/me-40027

He will be carrying a burden of a lot of guilt.

What a horrible ordeal. I'm so sorry this happened to his family.

Reminds me of the death of Christian singer Steven Curtis Chapman's daughter:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Cur ... xi_Chapman

[_Rollo Tomasi]

He will be carrying a burden of a lot of guilt.

I'm sure you're right; I can't imagine such a horrible thing happening to one of my children. That said, this does not excuse the MP using Alma 30:59-60 to taunt a former member with an apostate's horrible death. He, of all people, should know better.

[_Bazooka]

He will be carrying a burden of a lot of guilt.

I'm sure you're right; I can't imagine such a horrible thing happening to one of my children. That said, this does not excuse the MP using Alma 30:59-60 to taunt a former member with an apostate's horrible death. He, of all people, should know better.

Not having walked in his shoes I couldn't say how I would react.
It may be that the impact of the event has made him super zealous as a way of dealing with the feelings and emotions that must have wracked him every day and night since it happened. I'm not excusing what he said, but I do feel there may be some slack that we could, arguable should, cut him.

[_Tchild]

Read this guy's post to the end. Don't know if it's true. If it is....Wow.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1016813

Outside of the fictional Book of Mormon narrative, how many apostates have ever been "trodden to death"? Every apostate I know, gets along in life just as before, with the same struggles and accomplishments.

Would this curse also apply to apostates out of other religions who are baptized into Mormonism?

[_Hermes]

Maybe we will (be trodden down). So what? What does the miserable failure of my life have to do with proving the truth or falseness of Joseph Smith as a historian or Thomas Monson as CEO of Corporation of the President? Do we judge Christ by his utter failure to secure anything like material success in his lifetime (or even for a long time thereafter)? Do we believe in the Prosperity Gospel? Rich people are blessed because of their righteousness? Profiteering, conspicuous consumption (conspicuous enough that someone notices you and says, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant! Enter into the country club of thy Lord!"), and luck are righteousness? Really? To me this is a position that is untenable. "By their fruits ye shall know them." I prefer to know them not so much by their fruits (which have a lot to do with luck) as by how they react to those fruits. ("I won the lottery! God blessed me! You lost! He cursed you, probably because you suck!" I don't care how you succeed if this is your attitude. You could have a list of "good fruits" as long as the list of God's names in the Koran, and I wouldn't care.)