Something bugs me...

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_Megacles
_Emeritus
Posts: 93
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:43 am

Re: Something bugs me...

Post by _Megacles »

Tarski wrote:Something bugs me a bit right now. Help me put my finger on it.

Consider three people:

Person A. This person has put many years of study and thought into religion and is a Christian. He attends Episcopal services. He has studied philosophy, the arguments of atheists, and the competing doctrines of the various Christian sects. He has a respect for science but does not make an idol of it. He has studied the scriptures in depth and has studied the creeds, and the history of Christianity, the influence of Greek thinking and has even gone so far as to take up ancient languages. He has delved into deep questions about the doctrine of the trinity and other questions about the nature of God. His understanding is subtle and hard won. He can converse intelligently with professors of theology. He is a theologian of sorts.
He also lives a simple and ethical life and his politics are informed by his religious convictions. He spends time defending his religion in various forums and is clever with words and a good debater.


Person B This person is a housewife and Sunday school teacher who is disinterested in intellectual matters. She reads the Bible in English and takes it fairly literally. She believes in Noah's ark. She thinks that homosexuality is wrong and is convinced the Bible backs her up. She thinks science is boring and for geeks.
Her real passion is painting landscapes but she also does a lot of charity work and is a much beloved mother. Truth be known, her IQ is such that she couldn't delve into philosophical matters with any clarity even if she wanted to.

Person C This person loves science and is a biochemist. She is not so much against religion but it just bores her. Her parents were not religious in any serious way and the common religious beliefs she has heard strike her as myths or just so stories. Once in her life just after her daughter died she felt briefly interested in the possibility of a God and afterlife. However, she only poured her heart out to God in her mourning and never really studied religious doctrines or metaphysics. That part still bored her.

Person D This guy is not intellectual at all. Not that bright actually. He has a sort of intrinsic tendency toward mischief. He digs cars, football, and was a bit of a playboy until he married at 42 years of age. He works hard and can't be pushed around. He has a simple sense of fairness and can be found sticking up for the little guy. He says he believes in God and country. He never goes to church and has only read bits of the Bible as a child. He served in the Navy and had some occasions of quite valiant behavior.

Person E
This guy is similar to person D above but a little bit more intelligent and quite a bit more ambitious. His is rich. He is the owner of a national chain of restaurants. He says he believes in God if asked but doesn't pray or attend services except special occasions.



Now, my question is this. Given that the good news of the gospel is supposed to be for everyone and assuming there is some common denominator to what God wants of us, who is in better shape from God point of view? In particular, was there some advantage for righteousness and authenticity that accrues to a person like Person A?

In short, wherein lies the virtue from God's point of view in the attitudes and lifestyle of person A (The theologian). Does God somehow encourage or favor intellectual sophistication? Is Person A, in any important sense, "closer to God" or given an open heart, more likely to be closer to God?

More generally, does God want us to "figure things out"? Notice that even Nightlion seems to do a lot of studying and pondering and intellectualizing.



Tarski,

Well met. I casually poke around the Celestial forum, but this thread you have created has piqued my interest. I would like to make a couple of comments, if you don't mind.

I admit that, while I would like to be more like person A, my intelligence level is more like that of person D. Sure, I love to read and often actually understand what I am reading--biographies, histories, and other non-fiction--but I don't believe that I have the ability to retain such information consciously for very long. Still, reading thrills me. Being a lover of early Christianity and the early Middle Ages generally, I just finished a book by noted historian Chris Wickam. Beautifully written book, but do I remember what was in Chapter 1? Nope.

Still, I try to do my best to be good to my fellow people and to not hurt anyone in the process.

Person B is interesting: a painter who is uninterested in intellectual matters. It is my understanding that Art is an intellectual matter. Some might even say that the ability to create art is the most intellectual matter there is; or at least the most human.

Person C is a biochemist who is bored by religion. But she loves science--she has an emotional attachment to it. It excites her like reading history excites me. She is bored by religion, I am bored by the mathematics of science. Other than her intelligence level, we are not that different.

Person D seems to be a stereotypical American from the southern states. But he, too has both intellectual and emotional redeeming qualities. His valientness and quick thinking probably saved lives, including his own. His sense of honor and fairness seems pretty rare in today's world.

Person E is very intelligent. It takes a lot of brain power to successfully run a business, let alone a national chain of restaurants. His hard work has paid off--and owning a business is very, very hard work--and perhaps now he is enjoying the benefits. While you or I were in college, he obtained a small business loan and bought his first franchise. Not formally educated, perhaps, but unintelligent, no.

So, I guess my point is that everyone has certain qualities, interests, strengths and weaknesses. When weighed together, in God's eyes, we are valued the same. It is what we do with our strengths and weaknesses that matters, and what we do is completely within our control.
Sincerely,
/\/\EGACLES
_keithb
_Emeritus
Posts: 607
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:09 am

Re: Something bugs me...

Post by _keithb »

Tarski wrote:Something bugs me a bit right now. Help me put my finger on it.

Consider three people:

Person A. This person has put many years of study and thought into religion and is a Christian. He attends Episcopal services. He has studied philosophy, the arguments of atheists, and the competing doctrines of the various Christian sects. He has a respect for science but does not make an idol of it. He has studied the scriptures in depth and has studied the creeds, and the history of Christianity, the influence of Greek thinking and has even gone so far as to take up ancient languages. He has delved into deep questions about the doctrine of the trinity and other questions about the nature of God. His understanding is subtle and hard won. He can converse intelligently with professors of theology. He is a theologian of sorts.
He also lives a simple and ethical life and his politics are informed by his religious convictions. He spends time defending his religion in various forums and is clever with words and a good debater.


Person B This person is a housewife and Sunday school teacher who is disinterested in intellectual matters. She reads the Bible in English and takes it fairly literally. She believes in Noah's ark. She thinks that homosexuality is wrong and is convinced the Bible backs her up. She thinks science is boring and for geeks.
Her real passion is painting landscapes but she also does a lot of charity work and is a much beloved mother. Truth be known, her IQ is such that she couldn't delve into philosophical matters with any clarity even if she wanted to.

Person C This person loves science and is a biochemist. She is not so much against religion but it just bores her. Her parents were not religious in any serious way and the common religious beliefs she has heard strike her as myths or just so stories. Once in her life just after her daughter died she felt briefly interested in the possibility of a God and afterlife. However, she only poured her heart out to God in her mourning and never really studied religious doctrines or metaphysics. That part still bored her.

Person D This guy is not intellectual at all. Not that bright actually. He has a sort of intrinsic tendency toward mischief. He digs cars, football, and was a bit of a playboy until he married at 42 years of age. He works hard and can't be pushed around. He has a simple sense of fairness and can be found sticking up for the little guy. He says he believes in God and country. He never goes to church and has only read bits of the Bible as a child. He served in the Navy and had some occasions of quite valiant behavior.

Person E
This guy is similar to person D above but a little bit more intelligent and quite a bit more ambitious. His is rich. He is the owner of a national chain of restaurants. He says he believes in God if asked but doesn't pray or attend services except special occasions.



Now, my question is this. Given that the good news of the gospel is supposed to be for everyone and assuming there is some common denominator to what God wants of us, who is in better shape from God point of view? In particular, was there some advantage for righteousness and authenticity that accrues to a person like Person A?

In short, wherein lies the virtue from God's point of view in the attitudes and lifestyle of person A (The theologian). Does God somehow encourage or favor intellectual sophistication? Is Person A, in any important sense, "closer to God" or given an open heart, more likely to be closer to God?

More generally, does God want us to "figure things out"? Notice that even Nightlion seems to do a lot of studying and pondering and intellectualizing.


The more I learn about science and math, the more convinced I am that this universe simply CANNOT have anything approaching objective meaning. Any decision we make will very likely matter not at all 1 trillion years from now and 1 billion light years from our current location. Even if it did, it certainly won't matter Graham's number or Rado's number of years in the future. And even these latter two numbers are both finite. An infinite being (God) would spend an infinitesimal amount of time doing things in even a span of Rado's number of years. So if god exists, any finite actions lack meaning.

If god doesn't exist, then any finite actions also lack meaning because their effect must reasonably be lost on existence after a finite amount of time. After Rado's number of years, who/what remembers what Jack had for breakfast in 2010?

Hence, meaning must be entirely subjective. For Van Gogh, it was painting crap and cutting his ear off. For me, it's a mix of my job, my girl, and good food. For someone else, it's something else.
"Joseph Smith was called as a prophet, dumb-dumb-dumb-dumb-dumb" -South Park
_Nightlion
_Emeritus
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Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 8:11 pm

Re: Something bugs me...

Post by _Nightlion »

Speaking on behalf of Nightlion. After having been led to come unto Christ acceptably I was immediately rejected by the Mormons I grew up with. I needed to put that puzzle together. Now as a result of such a dilemma I know exactly how to bring forth and establish Zion, such that it will take hold and thrive once tried. Not even Joseph Smith could boast that.

Jesus said he does that which pleases his Father. Such are at an advantage. My own dad took great advantage of me as a kid and did not cease to even after I had five kids of my own. I always helped him when possible with his custom homes and later remodeling work. I always HAD to figure out how to please him as he left me to it rather than show me how. I did not screw up and mostly did a great job from site work to framing and finish work. Yet he was never grateful. He was just using me and could not care less if he kept me busy even when I depended upon working for him.

Beginning with the consideration of God, him being absent from us is sort of like my dad abusing me with demands yet no praise and little consideration. Still I always sought to please him. And probably because he was so indifferent to me. I was always seeking to solve the problem of his lack of affection.

So it seems like the distance between us and God proves who really wants to please him and will do all that he asks us to do even if by faith alone with faint rewards which must be prized to fit together the puzzle right sufficient to open up the door to the sheepfold, where the power is. To be fair though with God I have receive abundantly and not faintly. I was given a huge problem to solve. How to you keep the gospel to enhance it even and grow in it when all about you treat it with contempt? Yes, even the Church you fondly hoped were all friends.

I see no advantage in any of your subjects. Those who look away from the world because their souls are drawn to the distance where the love of God is and crave to know how shall they ever lay a claim upon it. Who seek then to please God and will step off and take no thought for their life while then seek the kingdom of God. These will the Father draw to come unto Christ acceptably. These will repent against the powers of this world and with full purpose of heart give all to know the Lord.
The Apocalrock Manifesto and Wonders of Eternity: New Mormon Theology
https://www.docdroid.net/KDt8RNP/the-apocalrock-manifesto.pdf
https://www.docdroid.net/IEJ3KJh/wonders-of-eternity-2009.pdf
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_Sammy Jankins
_Emeritus
Posts: 1864
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:56 am

Re: Something bugs me...

Post by _Sammy Jankins »

Tarski wrote:Now, my question is this. Given that the good news of the gospel is supposed to be for everyone and assuming there is some common denominator to what God wants of us, who is in better shape from God point of view? In particular, was there some advantage for righteousness and authenticity that accrues to a person like Person A?

In short, wherein lies the virtue from God's point of view in the attitudes and lifestyle of person A (The theologian). Does God somehow encourage or favor intellectual sophistication? Is Person A, in any important sense, "closer to God" or given an open heart, more likely to be closer to God?

More generally, does God want us to "figure things out"? Notice that even Nightlion seems to do a lot of studying and pondering and intellectualizing.


Tarski, I am an atheist, but I hope that I can contribute to this discussion.

If we are talking about the God of Christianity then we have these scriptures to contend with:

John 20:29
"Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

Hebrews 11:6
"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

John 3:18 - 19
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

Mark 16:16
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

John 16:8 - 9
"And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me;"

Psalms 53:1
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good."

There doesn't seem to be breathing room for a good nurtured unbelieving person. Unbelievers are damned. From this perspective faith is not only a virtue, but seemingly a moral imperative. Upon which our eternal fate hangs in the balance. When you mix this idea with living breathing people, or hypothetical people as you have done, then it becomes absurd. Because in reality there are a lot of elements that goes into what a person believes, and the reasons for what they believe. The idea that any one of these groups deserves to be punished for what they believe is borderline insane.

This is something that really bothers me, because it can be really poisonous. According to the narrative there must be something wrong with me if I don't believe (Otherwise why would I be condemned?)

If there is any scripture dealing with intellectual belief, or the importance of believing for Good reasons I'm not aware of it.
_Analytics
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Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:24 pm

Re: Something bugs me...

Post by _Analytics »

Playing the angel’s advocate, Person A might respond as follows….

As a Latter-day Saint, my beliefs are nearly those of a Universalist. Persons A-E are all decent human beings, and are all following their own paths through life, which is fine. Ultimately, each of these individuals will need to embrace my beliefs in order to be admitted into the Celestial Kingdom. While it is true that it would be better for them to embrace these truths sooner rather than latter, we all have our own life missions, and there will be time to come to terms with these truths in the Spirit World.

Regardless of your intellect and interests, the important things are to have faith in Christ, to repent of your sins, to be baptized, and to remain loyal to His kingdom on earth. My life’s mission is to come to a deep understanding of these truths, and to help people find room for belief when their intellects get in the way. All that is necessary, though, is to believe. If somebody has a simple belief that is sufficient for salvation. If somebody isn’t interested in these things now, they eventually will be and will have to come to terms with it. This will all happen on God’s timetable—not ours.
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.

-Yuval Noah Harari
_EAllusion
_Emeritus
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Re: Something bugs me...

Post by _EAllusion »

Analytics wrote:Playing the angel’s advocate, Person A might respond as follows….

As a Latter-day Saint, my beliefs are nearly those of a Universalist. Persons A-E are all decent human beings, and are all following their own paths through life, which is fine. Ultimately, each of these individuals will need to embrace my beliefs in order to be admitted into the Celestial Kingdom. While it is true that it would be better for them to embrace these truths sooner rather than latter, we all have our own life missions, and there will be time to come to terms with these truths in the Spirit World.

Regardless of your intellect and interests, the important things are to have faith in Christ, to repent of your sins, to be baptized, and to remain loyal to His kingdom on earth. My life’s mission is to come to a deep understanding of these truths, and to help people find room for belief when their intellects get in the way. All that is necessary, though, is to believe. If somebody has a simple belief that is sufficient for salvation. If somebody isn’t interested in these things now, they eventually will be and will have to come to terms with it. This will all happen on God’s timetable—not ours.

Does it matter why a person believes? Is believing for irrational reasons equally as sufficient as believing for good ones?
_Uncle Ed
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Re: Something bugs me...

Post by _Uncle Ed »

Tarski wrote:Something bugs me a bit right now. Help me put my finger on it.

Consider [five] people:

Person A. This person has put many years of study and thought into religion and is a Christian. He attends Episcopal services. He has studied philosophy, the arguments of atheists, and the competing doctrines of the various Christian sects. He has a respect for science but does not make an idol of it. He has studied the scriptures in depth and has studied the creeds, and the history of Christianity, the influence of Greek thinking and has even gone so far as to take up ancient languages. He has delved into deep questions about the doctrine of the trinity and other questions about the nature of God. His understanding is subtle and hard won. He can converse intelligently with professors of theology. He is a theologian of sorts.
He also lives a simple and ethical life and his politics are informed by his religious convictions. He spends time defending his religion in various forums and is clever with words and a good debater.


Person B This person is a housewife and Sunday school teacher who is disinterested in intellectual matters. She reads the Bible in English and takes it fairly literally. She believes in Noah's ark. She thinks that homosexuality is wrong and is convinced the Bible backs her up. She thinks science is boring and for geeks.
Her real passion is painting landscapes but she also does a lot of charity work and is a much beloved mother. Truth be known, her IQ is such that she couldn't delve into philosophical matters with any clarity even if she wanted to.

Person C This person loves science and is a biochemist. She is not so much against religion but it just bores her. Her parents were not religious in any serious way and the common religious beliefs she has heard strike her as myths or just so stories. Once in her life just after her daughter died she felt briefly interested in the possibility of a God and afterlife. However, she only poured her heart out to God in her mourning and never really studied religious doctrines or metaphysics. That part still bored her.

Person D This guy is not intellectual at all. Not that bright actually. He has a sort of intrinsic tendency toward mischief. He digs cars, football, and was a bit of a playboy until he married at 42 years of age. He works hard and can't be pushed around. He has a simple sense of fairness and can be found sticking up for the little guy. He says he believes in God and country. He never goes to church and has only read bits of the Bible as a child. He served in the Navy and had some occasions of quite valiant behavior.

Person E
This guy is similar to person D above but a little bit more intelligent and quite a bit more ambitious. His is rich. He is the owner of a national chain of restaurants. He says he believes in God if asked but doesn't pray or attend services except special occasions.



Now, my question is this. Given that the good news of the gospel is supposed to be for everyone and assuming there is some common denominator to what God wants of us, who is in better shape from God point of view? In particular, was there some advantage for righteousness and authenticity that accrues to a person like Person A?

In short, wherein lies the virtue from God's point of view in the attitudes and lifestyle of person A (The theologian). Does God somehow encourage or favor intellectual sophistication? Is Person A, in any important sense, "closer to God" or given an open heart, more likely to be closer to God?

More generally, does God want us to "figure things out"? Notice that even Nightlion seems to do a lot of studying and pondering and intellectualizing.

I see no "bad" people in the five examples you give. Each one is different in their world view approach to living, but none of them do bad things to anyone. You could say that the world is better for each one living in it. Each is growing, learning, loving life more than hating it, etc.

So the answer to me is that each individual is finding out what "God Is" one day at a time, whether or not they even think about "God" much if at all....
A man should never step a foot into the field,
But have his weapons to hand:
He knows not when he may need arms,
Or what menace meet on the road. - Hávamál 38

Man's joy is in Man. - Hávamál 47
_robuchan
_Emeritus
Posts: 555
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Re: Something bugs me...

Post by _robuchan »

Bazooka wrote:Tarski, it depends on which God....


This is my response as well. You need to answer a lot of questions about God or list a set of assumptions before you can ask a question "which person is God most pleased with?" or "which of these people is following God's will closest?" Even if you adopt a religion's set of assumptions such as LDS, there's still a lot of room for interpretation when it comes to the importance of intellectualism and study.
_Tarski
_Emeritus
Posts: 3059
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:57 pm

Re: Something bugs me...

Post by _Tarski »

Sammy Jankins wrote:If we are talking about the God of Christianity then we have these scriptures to contend with:

John 20:29
"Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

Hebrews 11:6
"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

John 3:18 - 19
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

Mark 16:16
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

John 16:8 - 9
"And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me;"

Psalms 53:1
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good."

There doesn't seem to be breathing room for a good nurtured unbelieving person. Unbelievers are damned. From this perspective faith is not only a virtue, but seemingly a moral imperative.



Yeh, John 20:29 seems to be saying essentially, blessed are they that adopt these beliefs without evidence.


Indeed, it seems skepticism, learning, empirical evidence, and enlightenment values generally are despised by God.

Some of these scriptures and much of what we hear from the pulpit seems like a set of self-propagating notions almost consciously designed by a priestly class to secure a position of power in society.

By the way, to me Aristotle Smith on this board is a bit like person A. In a way, it is the approach to religion that is the hardest to understand of all. On the other hand, if I were going to be religious, I would essentially have no choice but to go with an intellectualized version that incorporated a mix of well, .... scripture mingled with the philosophies of man. LOL
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo
_Analytics
_Emeritus
Posts: 4231
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:24 pm

Re: Something bugs me...

Post by _Analytics »

EAllusion wrote:Does it matter why a person believes? Is believing for irrational reasons equally as sufficient as believing for good ones?

Leaving on my angel's advocate halo, the answer is basically no. A simple faith in the true gospel, even if it is naïve faith that is part of an unexamined life is better than being wrong after a sincere and detailed investigation. As Jacob said, “O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.” (2 Nephi 9:28)

Being educated is only good if you hearken unto the counsels of God. (2 Nephi 9:29) If so-called intellectuals don’t become as a little child, submissive, meek, and humble (Mosiah 3:19), they’ll be in trouble, because God despises people who are puffed up because of their learning, their wisdom, and their riches (2 Nephi 9:42).
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.

-Yuval Noah Harari
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