Something bugs me...

[_Analytics]

Indeed, it seems skepticism, learning, empirical evidence, and enlightenment values generally are despised by God.

Precisely. 2 Nephi 9:42 says, "And whoso knocketh, to him will he open; and the wise, and the learned, and they that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning, and their wisdom, and their riches—yea, they are they whom he despiseth; and save they shall cast these things away, and consider themselves fools before God, and come down in the depths of humility, he will not open unto them."

[_thews]

More generally, does God want us to "figure things out"?

Your question is rhetorical, because we have no other choice but to eventually figure things out (in a dimension we have no knowledge of) based upon our experiences. Whatever the individual learns in life is known only by the individual. Whatever is deemed wanted by God is unknown, but it's safe to assume (in my opinion) that whatever God wants, God gets. Since the playing field is not level and we all come from differing experiences and intellect, it makes no sense to me to conclude that life is some sort of pass/fail test. If the objective of life is to experience it, then the serial killer and the pope aren't given a grade at the end. God made man with the ability to do great evil as well as good, so it's logical to assume it's what God wants. The purpose of each life is known only to God, as human nature would dictate that a good God would not want evil.

The ideal that life's conclusion ends in heaven vs. hell is absurd in my opinion, as it assumes the individual knows the rules, which were not (factually) given to us. Mormons may claim to "know" the church is true, but they don't... they believe it. The reasons they believe it are based on experiences, but the reason they claim to "know" it, is based upon being instructed (brainwashed) that they do "know" it.

The scenarios that form the basis for your question Tarski, assumes we remain individuals in the afterlife. What if we all become a piece of a collective entity?

[_huckelberry]

Now, my question is this. Given that the good news of the gospel is supposed to be for everyone and assuming there is some common denominator to what God wants of us, who is in better shape from God point of view? In particular, was there some advantage for righteousness and authenticity that accrues to a person like Person A?

In short, wherein lies the virtue from God's point of view in the attitudes and lifestyle of person A (The theologian). Does God somehow encourage or favor intellectual sophistication? Is Person A, in any important sense, "closer to God" or given an open heart, more likely to be closer to God?

More generally, does God want us to "figure things out"? Notice that even Nightlion seems to do a lot of studying and pondering and intellectualizing.

Tarski, there is something interesting in the contrasts you presented but I am puzzled, You left out clues as to whether these people were good bad or indifferent. They could even be saints or devils or at least I could imagine such extremes for any of them.

Perhaps the obvious should be stated in order to touch your question. The Bible is clear that what God cares about is how we treat each other. Closer to your question would be Paul's explanation of different gifts or abilities all potentially working together for good. In view of that all of your examples could in their own way be working together for good.

I think that leaving out these considerations pushed the discussion into pursuit of the possible role shallow belief has as a substitute for what God wants.

An alternate inquiry might be which types of person might be most able to turn from selfish desire to action which respects and helps others. Because ourself is at the center of so much of our thought and action, a certain turning is involved in growing beyond that limited concern.

Being myself a person having some intellectual interests though lacking true brilliance I like to see the positive possibilities for learning, questioning and understanding. I see inquiry as a quest for truth and knowledge which is a respect for the world beyond oneself. I can hope that leads to better appreciation of our role as living with each other and not just being a center for desire and consumption.

I have heard,however, at least stories where the desire to learn became tunnel vision leaving out any real concern for others. I hope that is not me. Perhaps none of your types are sure to be good.

[_Tarski]

Perhaps the obvious should be stated in order to touch your question. The Bible is clear that what God cares about is how we treat each other.

Really? He hasn't set such a good example in quite few notable cases.
Actually, I think it is far from clear God is mainly concerned about how we treat each other. First there is a great deal of emphasis on believing, emphasis on being on the right team (worshipping the correct gods often on pain of death in case of violation) and plenty of emphasis on performing the correct rituals.

It seems that religious people are also quite concerned with these things and their concern with treating people nicely is basically on par with non-religious people.

Jesus is thought to have emphasized being nice to the downtrodden and poor alright, but if I am not mistaken, Jesus himself seems to have thought his message was for Jews while Paul made the move to the gentiles.
Furthermore, Jesus seems quite concerned with making sure we accept him in some way that involves exclusivity and worship as well as the need for correct rituals such as baptism. It looks to me that Jesus was quite willing to see nice people go to hell if they didn't confesses belief in his exclusive status as savior.

I don't know of very many people who are concerned with religion who don't seem to be trying to figure something out or claim to have figured out or had it revealed to them what is or isn't the case with regard to correct ritual, metaphysics, affiliation and the nature of God. In fact, they act as if these were the main things to be worried about.

[_huckelberry]

Perhaps the obvious should be stated in order to touch your question. The Bible is clear that what God cares about is how we treat each other.

Really?
Jesus is thought to have emphasized being nice to the downtrodden and poor all right, but if I am not mistaken, Jesus himself seems to have thought his message was for Jews while Paul made the move to the gentiles.
Furthermore, Jesus seems quite concerned with making sure we accept him in some way that involves exclusivity and worship as well as the need for correct rituals such as baptism. It looks to me that Jesus was quite willing to see nice people go to hell if they didn't confesses belief in his exclusive status as savior.

I don't know of very many people who are concerned with religion who don't seem to be trying to figure something out or claim to have figured out or had it revealed to them what is or isn't the case with regard to correct ritual, metaphysics, affiliation and the nature of God. In fact, they act as if these were the main things to be worried about.

Tarski
Pardon my trimming of your post. I thought you brought up a large amount of considerations. I suppose there are people as you describe though I do not think that I have been around any recently.I have wondered sometimes if some people have a special Bible for their interests. Some have one that says "thou shalt grind the faces of the poor in order to build mansions magnifying your ministry." This instruction is missing in mine. Similarly there is a story in some where a person is robbed but despite temptation the priest understands ritual purity and avoids contamination. Meanwhile an ignorant Samaritan picks the guy up and takes him to an Inn where they loose their purity. Now my Bible has the story a little differently but take your pick.

Some have a final judgement where sheep wearing Jesus flags are all saved and goats who lacked the thing and the ritual sign are sent away. My Bible is a little different.

In some Isaiah starts his books with a complaint from God that people have wasted their time on social concerns instead of holding to the required sacrifices.

Bible on my shelf says instead ( Isaiah chapter one): Hear the word of the Lord you rulers of Gomorrah. Hear the word of the Lord you rulers of Sodom. Listen to the law of our God... the multitude of your sacrifices what are they to me. Says the Lord. I have more than enough of burnt offerings of rams and fat of fattened animals . I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats. When you come to appear before me who has asked this of you ? this trampling of my courts. Stop bringing meaningless offering. Your incense is detestable to me. I cannot bear your evil assemblies ... You have become a burden .. I will hide my eyes from you. Even if you offer many prayers. I will not listen. Your hands are full of blood. Wash yourself an make yourselves clean .Take your evil deeds out of my sight Sop doing wrong and learn to do right.

Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. Defend the cause of the fatherless and plead the case of the widow.

[_Tarski]

Now my Bible has the story a little differently but take your pick..

Your Bible? Not sure what you mean. Are you using some kind of reworked "Bible-lite" or something. My point has so much to do with whether you tend to filter out everything except that which sounds good to the modern secular ethical ear.
I am just asserting that if one reads any of the most common translations of the Bible and if one talks to a variety of people who describe themselves as strongly religious, Bible believers, or members of large Christian denominations, one definitely sees an overwhelming emphasis on adherence to things such as correct doctrine, ritual, faith in the unseen, belief and exclusivity ( "I am the way", accept Jesus as the one true savior etc.).

But just out of curiosity, and at the risk of deviating slightly from the central topic of the OP, what is your Bible exactly and how does it handle the following?


You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10


You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16

Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13

Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20

Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11

Jude tells us that God destroys those who don’t believe in him. Jude 5

Don’t associate with non-Christians. Don’t let them into your house or even exchange greeting with them. 2 John 1:10

Shun those who disagree with your religious views. Romans 16:17

Paul, realizing that the faith would crumble if subjected to critical inquiry, instructs his followers to avoid philosophy. Colossians 2:8

Whoever denies “that Jesus is the Christ” is a liar and an anti-Christ. 1 John 2:22

The non-Christian is “a deceiver and an anti-Christ” 2 John 1:7

Christians are “of God;” everyone else is wicked. 1 John 5:19

Anyone who doesn’t share Paul’s Christianity has “an evil heart.” Hebrews 3:12

Everyone will have to worship Jesus -- like it or not. Philippians 2:10

A Christian can not be accused of any wrongdoing. Romans 8:33

False Jews are members of “the synagogue of Satan.” Revelations 2:9, 3:9

[_DarkHelmet]

You didn't say if these people are democrats or republicans.

[_huckelberry]

Tarski , I do not recall saying I agreed with every comment in the Bible concerning how we treat each other.

[_Tarski]

Tarski , I do not recall saying I agreed with every comment in the Bible concerning how we treat each other.

I didn't say you did. I am concerned with the overall thrust of the Bible and biblical religion as practiced and preached. The stuff about treating each other well seems swamped by other concerns.

[_huckelberry]

I am concerned with the overall thrust of the Bible and biblical religion as practiced and preached. The stuff about treating each other well seems swamped by other concerns.

Tarski,
I cannot find it in myself to say you have no reason to be concerned.The Bible is a large book with a variety of materials and points of view. People are so easily attracted to a platform from which to assert power that from that is all too frequently what people seek in the Bible. There is material that can be interpreted in ways to form such a foundation. I might demure by pointing out that much of the Bible focuses on that very tendency for criticism. Still some material directly builds toward such a foundation. I think some of what you point out is open to various interpretation and may or may not be used to build that kind of foundation,I a will not try to hide from the fact that some such material does not have such interpretive ambiguity.

Perhaps there is a worthwhile irony in noting that some of ugliest quotes you provide,the Deuteronomic laws of war are focused upon a specific ideal of human relations. I am sure they were intended to focus on an ideal of loyalty, courage and commitment to the health and preservation of community. I believe that despite a good intention they formed the basis of terrible policy with the Maccabees which certainly eased the path of Roman conquest by erasing all possible friends for Israel. That same set of rules would inspire the troubles which lead to the repeated Roman destruction of Israel. At least some of the appearance of a Jesus movement would exist in questioning the direction of policy from those instruction for holy war. Culturally it was not really possible to directly questions the laws in question. Thinking has tried to find paths around them. I suppose that cultural problem remains. I have not heard any fundamentalist enthusiast campaign for the deployment of those particular laws. (there may be an exception in Idaho). Even so it is probably not acceptable to a number of people for me to say I see those laws as badly formed leading to bad policy which created evil.