Word of Wisdom - the wheat problem....

[_Maksutov]

He's here as a provocateur, a troll. He is pretty amusing, though. I still get a giggle out of his "wildly unique" Book of Mormon claims. That was him, right? Poor whining pup needs attention

I am still shocked at the WOW claims made by this recently revealed New Order Mormon. I everything not expressly spelled out in the scriptures is the way to go, I might reconsider my decisions to leave.

The sky's the limit.

It's the old chapel vs internet Mormon. It's everywhere these days.

[_Tobin]

Why do you guys insist on being such punks? We now live in a time where we have refrigerators. Meat can be safely kept in times other than just the winter. Or if this makes you go into brain freeze, we could say it's winter year round in the ice box. The scripture doesn't specify natural or artificial winter. You don't understand the scriptures though because you've got the wrong glasses on. But of course you know that. You were members, and obviously LDS TBM's aren't taking the literalist meaning that you are, you're just here to nuisance troll.

I think you'll find most of the critics on this forum are very judgmental and use narrow thinking (or none at all) when it comes to Mormonism (and most other topics). Just learn from this and be careful when casting your gaze on others Water Dog and not make the same mistake.

[_Chap]

12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;

13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

Let's see if you can find anywhere that the Church (not the opinions of local members) has officially disavowed or clarified this part to mean that members can eat meat whenever they want....

Funny that Water Dog can't answer the question in bold ... the church clarified about the meaning of 'hot drinks', and about coke, but it never says 'Members may nowadays eat as much meat as they want, since conditions have changed since the Wow was revealed'. Why not?

I did answer the question. Use your little mouse pointer, click on page 1 of this thread, and read. You'll find the answer.

ON p1. there are two posts by WD:

Grains are healthy if properly prepared. Who was the WOW addressed to? 19th century audience. How did they prepare grains? By sprouting, soaking, and fermenting them. It's extremely healthy.

Clearly nothing about the church saying you can eat as much meat as you like nowadays.

So what you're saying here is that you think it is meet for man to be instructed in all things? You're advocating Satan's plan. Interesting. You're blaming the WOW for failing to consider the advent of mass processed foods in the 20th century. It cracks me up. If the church leaders appear to be micromanaging people's lives you complain about this, it's "unrighteous dominion." If the church leaders fail to micromanage people's lives, you complain about this. I appreciate the candor. This explains your support of Big Government. You really do just want Satan's plan. The church won't command us in all things, so let's form a government that will. All for one and none for all!

Is that supposed to be an answer to the question Bazooka posed?

The old 'If we answered that question you'd just find something else to complain about' nonsense?

I don't think the silent lurkers are going to think that Water Dog has done a very good job of stopping the CoJCoLDS looking just a leetle bit ridiculous here.

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

No. I was pointing out that their advice to "drink when you are thirsty" seemed a little obvious.

Oh, you aren't being the least bit snide. Good for you.

Avoiding strong drinks and avoiding tobacco has worked out pretty well so far. Tell me, do those professional nutritionists recommend binge drinking or a steady diet of tequila or whiskey or cigars and cigarrettes?

Call me crazy, but grains and fruits are probably a good source of food. There is also a point to be made about meat in excess (especially red meat).

We're talking wheat here. Why are you throwing fruit in with grains? And who recommended meat in excess?

I repeat, wheat is no longer a good food for the majority of humans. That is my contention.

Does the word of wisdom say that we should "overconsume" wheat products?

No, of course it does not. It doesn't give any guidelines, only a big green light, saying God intends wheat for man.

Saying that it is "intended for man" equals a "big green light"? And you take that and say that it should be interpreted to mean that we should eat more than we need? I'm sorry if you feel the need to interpret it that way.

God intends us to breathe, not hyperventilate.

Do I really need to spell this out for you? I'm not going to bother arguing with your desperate exaggerations, which I'm giving your intelligence the benefit of the doubt and believe are intentional.

Why should any member give any thought to whether he is over consuming?

How about some common sense? ... Like drink water when you are thirsty.

Many people eat wheat with every meal. For centuries that has been considered normal. There is nothing in the WoW to tell them that is over consuming.

[_seven7up]

While I have heard members opine that we should try not to eat too much meat, and I have tried to reduce my consumption (especially red meat), I really have not seen much emphasis on that part from the church leadership. Likewise, if I were to start making wine in my basement, I think that would still be frowned upon by church leadership.

So, clearly the guidelines have changed from when the WoW was originally given. More emphasis has been placed on abstaining from tobacco, drugs, and alcohol. Coffee is still on the list and tea, well ... I have even seen life-long members drink herbal tea. I really don't have a problem with the changes, as they all seem quite reasonable based on the society in which we live.

The modern Church absolutely does have a ban on eating meat except in times of cold, winter and famine.
It is in the exact same scriptural section as the ban on strong drink.
It is doctrine.

12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;

13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

Let's see if you can find anywhere that the Church (not the opinions of local members) has officially disavowed or clarified this part to mean that members can eat meat whenever they want....

You are being unreasonable. The Church handbook forbids the use of illegal drugs, but the original Word of Wisdom does not mention illegal drugs. Are you suggesting that a ban on illegal drugs cannot be considered "church doctrine"?

The guidelines for the church concerning the Word of Wisdom have clearly changed. That is what having a living prophet is all about. Advise was given by the Lord concerning how the church should approach these things in the mid 1800s, which is different than He would have us approach it today.

Waterdog DOES have a point in that the restriction on meat in the 1800s during winter and famine are not challenges that we have today. I am sure that the counsel was quite relevant when it was given. However, I think it is quite obvious that those restrictions have not been emphasized by the church leadership in more recent times, because times have changed, technology has changed, and society is changed. Meat is not mentioned in the current Handbook and has not been publicly mentioned by any General Authorities for many years. If God has a serious problem with how we are handling the meat situation, then we can expect reproof from God through the leadership.

Likewise, things have changed concerning alcohol consumption. In the 1800s (and in the New Testament church) faithful people in the church could drink wine. The original WoW does not forbid it. But times changed - not only is there advancement in medicine and water purification, but I believe society has become a breeding ground for binging and over-consumption; therefore the church has placed a stricter ban on alcohol. I have no doubt that the saints have been blessed when living by these guidelines, and I believe that the church leaders are well within their bounds to change the guidelines as needed. In fact, I believe that they were inspired to make the changes when they did.

-7up

[_seven7up]

No. I was pointing out that their advice to "drink when you are thirsty" seemed a little obvious.

Oh, you aren't being the least bit snide. Good for you.

This was in reference to the idea that even too much water, which is necessary for life, can be bad for you.

Avoiding strong drinks and avoiding tobacco has worked out pretty well so far. Tell me, do those professional nutritionists recommend binge drinking or a steady diet of tequila or whiskey or cigars and cigarrettes?

rolleyes

No need to roll your eyes. Just ask yourself whether or not a person (or society) which tends to avoid the consumption of alcohol, tobacco, drugs, and other addictive substances is better off ... or not.

I think it is pretty obvious that the way the Latter Day Saints has applied the Word of Wisdom has been very beneficial.

I repeat, wheat is no longer a good food for the majority of humans. That is my contention.

You may be right. Modern wheat, especially when processed the way it is, likely is not good for you, especially in the amounts consumed in the average diet. One of the biggest problems is that the modern diet does not have enough fiber. Therefore, when consumed, these products are quickly absorbed and converted into sugars, and you get a spike in blood sugar, followed by a dip in blood sugar, which sends your metabolism into a roller coaster ride; probably not healthy.

Call me crazy, but grains and fruits are probably a good source of food. There is also a point to be made about meat in excess (especially red meat).

We're talking wheat here. Why are you throwing fruit in with grains? And who recommended meat in excess?

Wheat IS a grain. And as I said previously, even water can be consumed en excess. If you drink too much too quickly, it can even kill you.

In the LDS church nowadays, you don't really get emphasis from the church leaders saying, "you need to eat more wheat." At least, I have never heard it in my experience.

Let's review here. In the 1800s, LDS were encouraged to conserve meat, for times of need. Strong drink was prohibited, but wine was O.K. Wheat was good, but all kinds of things were different back then and throughout the history of man, the wheat, the fiber, etc. Then the emphasis in the church changed as the decades rolled by, and more restrictions and emphasis was placed on a ban on alcohol, tobacco, and drugs. Less emphasis was placed on wheat and meat issues as the decades rolled by.

So, what is the problem?

-7up

P.S. Also, hot drinks were clarified to refer to coffee and tea; primarily interpreted to mean highly caffeinated drinks (... and sometimes members even took this a little too far and interpreted this to include caffeinated sodas - please note, however, that coffee has 5 times the caffeine as a cola drink).

[_Equality]

P.S. Also, hot drinks were clarified to refer to coffee and tea; primarily interpreted to mean highly caffeinated drinks (... and sometimes members even took this a little too far and interpreted this to include caffeinated sodas - please note, however, that coffee has 5 times the caffeine as a cola drink).

I get so sick of this tired refrain. Yeah, Mormon members are known for just making stuff up and running with it. It couldn't be that they maybe heard general authority after general authority condemn caffeinated beverages. It couldn't be that when they were at BYU caffeinated beverages were not sold on campus. They just sort of came up with the "no caffeinated drinks" thing all on their own. I remember in the late 90s, Gordon B. Hinckley went on 60 Minutes. I was at a friend's house (a guy I had friendshipped as he was investigating the church with his wife). We were in South Carolina, far from the Mormon Corridor, and I would say there was probably about a 50/50 split among active members on drinking caffeinated sodas. Well, as soon as Hinckley assented to Wallace's characterization that Mormons don't drink caffeinated sodas, my friend dumped out all his Coke and said "that's it for me." So, um, yeah, blame the members for this just like apologists blame the members for the "blacks weren't valiant in the pre-existence" and "God was once a man" and "Joseph used the plates to translate the Book of Mormon" and "the Indians are Lamanites" and on and on.

[_seven7up]

Also, hot drinks were clarified to refer to coffee and tea; primarily interpreted to mean highly caffeinated drinks (... and sometimes members even took this a little too far and interpreted this to include caffeinated sodas - please note, however, that coffee has 5 times the caffeine as a cola drink).

I get so sick of this tired refrain. Yeah, Mormon members are known for just making stuff up and running with it. It couldn't be that they maybe heard general authority after general authority condemn caffeinated beverages.

While it is true that caffeine has been described as the reason behind the prohibition of coffee and tea, sodas were never put on the same level, and I believe appropriately so. The personal consumption of sodas with caffeine has always been left to a personal decision, and not something to keep you from getting a temple recommend.

I remember in the late 90s, Gordon B. Hinckley went on 60 Minutes. I was at a friend's house (a guy I had friendshipped as he was investigating the church with his wife). We were in South Carolina, far from the Mormon Corridor, and I would say there was probably about a 50/50 split among active members on drinking caffeinated sodas. Well, as soon as Hinckley assented to Wallace's characterization that Mormons don't drink caffeinated sodas, my friend dumped out all his Coke and said "that's it for me."

It was still a personal decision for your friend. But hey, maybe quitting Coke probably did him some good. I probably shouldn't drink as much as I do either. I have seen people who are essentially addicted to diet pepsi/coke. Do you think Coke is good for you?

Even so. It is not banned.

-7up

[_Equality]

Even so. It is not banned.

-7up

Try buying one at the Cougareat.

[_Equality]

Do you think Coke is good for you?

-7up

Nope. But it's no worse than decaffeinated sugary sodas, which many Mormons find wholesome and consume in large quantities. Sugar-filled sodas are far less healthful than moderate amounts of tea and coffee. Mormon God has been dilatory in getting the message to his prophets and people.