From My Informant: A Tale of Two Factions

[_Zadok]

I like to think of it as a sign that the poster's Falling and Dejection has been Made Sure.

Well crap, when do I get MY blue letters then?

[_Sethbag]

Why Me shows up to tell us how full his ward house is. I'm curious, since the last time I paid any attention to Why Me's posts he wasn't actually attending. So how the hell would he know?

Either way, he's taking as evidence that there's no big apostasy going on the fact that people are still attending church. By definition the apostates won't be there, so how'd he know?

Why Me, have you looked at your ward's membership rolls? How many are listed who don't show up each week?

[_sock puppet]

I like to think of it as a sign that the poster's Falling and Dejection has been Made Sure.

Well crap, when do I get MY blue letters then?

It helps if you not only get your Falling and Dejection Made Sure, as Chap notes, but also you take a faculty position at Cassius U.

[_Zadok]

It helps if you not only get your Falling and Dejection Made Sure, as Chap notes, but also you take a faculty position at Cassius U.

That is sad, I will have to seek my accolades elsewhere. I received my letters at a University named after a beloved Prophet, and while I learned many different meanings for the term "Punch Bowl", sadly, I didn't learn much else. So I fear I won't be qualified for a chair at Cassius U.

I will point out that while attending my alma matter I did learn the this little maxim...
Those who can, DO.
Those who can't DO, Teach.
Those who can't Teach, work for BYU.

[_Bazooka]

I don't think it can reasonably be doubted that there are at least two "camps" when it comes to dealing with the mass apostasy that the church currently faces.

I see no mass apostacy. My ward is full. Now do people leave sometimes. Yes. But people leave all churches. I don't see any camps either. But since human beings are thinking beings, there are probably some disagreements. But that is normal.

Things are going back to the 70s. Back then, the ensign had much information about many different topics that were ignored in the late eighties through to 2013 when the magazine changed. But now, things are going back to normal and members are becoming better informed. The point is: when the church gives it interpretation to controversies, they do a good job.

The Church has a confirmed activity rate of 36% worldwide.
What percentage of inactivity would you consider as "mass apostasy" if not the current rate of 64%?

[_Symmachus]

The Church has a confirmed activity rate of 36% worldwide.
What percentage of inactivity would you consider as "mass apostasy" if not the current rate of 64%

Once, when filled with a particularly virulent bout of self-loathing, I listend to the talks of every dead Church president and apostle from the BYU speeches website. Ezra Taft Benson, then an apostle, bragged in one of his BYU talks from the 1960s (accessible here, for those of you in search of mind-crushing boredom) that the Church's activity rate at that time was in the high 30s, which, he claimed, leaders from other denominations admired, even envied, in their private talks with him.

High 30s. In the 1960s, the decade of baseball baptisms and open racism.

So, if a Church apostle considered this rate to be something worth boasting about 50 years ago, and if they have maintained it for those 50 years, why should they see 36% in 2014 as a reflection of mass apostasy?

[_Kishkumen]

Once, when filled with a particularly virulent bout of self-loathing, I listend to the talks of every dead Church president and apostle from the BYU speeches website. Ezra Taft Benson, then an apostle, bragged in one of his BYU talks from the 1960s (accessible here, for those of you in search of mind-crushing boredom) that the Church's activity rate at that time was in the high 30s, which, he claimed, leaders from other denominations admired, even envied, in their private talks with him.

High 30s. In the 1960s, the decade of baseball baptisms and open racism.

So, if a Church apostle considered this rate to be something worth boasting about 50 years ago, and if they have maintained it for those 50 years, why should they see 36% in 2014 as a reflection of mass apostasy?

Thank you, Symmachus. That was a much needed corrective to the illusion that somehow the LDS Church is in huge trouble.

[_Chap]

The Church has a confirmed activity rate of 36% worldwide.
What percentage of inactivity would you consider as "mass apostasy" if not the current rate of 64%?

it is interesting to do some comparisons here.

President Newsroom currently claims that there are 6,398,889 members in the US.

However, the Pew survey of religious attitudes found that when people in the US were asked to say what their religion was, the number of informants who volunteered the self-description 'LDS/Mormon' was 1.7%. Taking the US population as 323,000,000, that would give 5,500,000 self-described Mormons. (Note that this is an significant overestimate, since the 323,000,000 includes every human being in the US, babies included)

That figure of 1.7% is the number of people who fulfil the rock-bottom non-zero qualification for being called "Mormon". You don't even have to have been baptised, you may never have paid a cent of tithing, you can be in a same-sex marriage, and drink tea, coffee and alcohol at will while never going near a ward house, let alone a temple. Your beliefs may be far from those taught by the CoJCoLDS. All you have to do is be willing to say "I suppose I'm a Mormon" if someone asks what your religion is.

And the figure of 5,500,000 derived from that 1.7%, already an overestimate for the reasons stated, is nearly a million less than the membership claim made by the CoJCoLDS, including all the 'inactive' members they are prepared to admit to.

It does not seem that President Newsroom's membership statistics are worth a lot as an indication of the true membership situation.

[_Tobin]

Once, when filled with a particularly virulent bout of self-loathing, I listend to the talks of every dead Church president and apostle from the BYU speeches website. Ezra Taft Benson, then an apostle, bragged in one of his BYU talks from the 1960s (accessible here, for those of you in search of mind-crushing boredom) that the Church's activity rate at that time was in the high 30s, which, he claimed, leaders from other denominations admired, even envied, in their private talks with him.

High 30s. In the 1960s, the decade of baseball baptisms and open racism.

So, if a Church apostle considered this rate to be something worth boasting about 50 years ago, and if they have maintained it for those 50 years, why should they see 36% in 2014 as a reflection of mass apostasy?

Thank you, Symmachus. That was a much needed corrective to the illusion that somehow the LDS Church is in huge trouble.

The LDS Church has been badly mismanaged and lead for decades. Giving examples from 50 years ago of this only shows that it is endemic. It hardly means the LDS Church is in huge trouble or likely to disappear in the near future or even within our lifetimes.

[_Kishkumen]

It does not seem that President Newsroom's membership statistics are worth a lot as an indication of the true membership situation.

I was under the impression that they continue to count people who are likely dead; i.e., they count everyone who was baptized until 110 years after their birth date. Something like that. I could be wrong.