How has the Church benefited from using Excommunication?

[_Mayan Elephant]

My only departure from the printed statements is that, I believe, the decision has been already made and that President King (Is that his name?) has already been directed as to what his 'inspiration' will be.

and that is the point i was addressing. and suggesting that even if king knows where he is going with this, it may not be because he is being directed. that is speculation, at best.

i think it is funny, really, to follow that logic.

let me see if i understand it - the church takes ten years and tries countless means and methods to work with a vocal nuisance. the church takes countless hours working with this nuisance while he insults and demeans the work and beliefs of others. finally, this individual makes it personal by maligning one local guy, and creams him in the press. thank god that target of derision is just an idiot and not able or qualified to think for himself so that the PR department can manipulate him.

what part of the joke and sarcasm am i missing, man?

the other leg of the joke/argument is that king is just collateral damage on the part of both sides - the church and dehlin. that is a conversation i would entertain. i think dehlin has absolutely no problem using people for his own promotion. he did that with his surveys. he did that with the gay and lesbian studies where he solicits information for his own gain. he did it yesterday with his sorry-ass solicitation for stories about marriage, and then he pimped them later in the day. he did that to cwald and others that started groups for Mormon stories. he is a pimp ass fly g gansta from c valley yo bitch.

[_Mayan Elephant]

yo zadok. i have another metaphor theory analogy thing about this whole excommunication. hang on. this one is going to be good. i got a real gangsta analogy brewing.

[_Zadok]

Remember as you consider the 10 year slow apostasy of John Dehlin that he has flipped and flopped back and forth more times than a Bonneville Cisco on the ice of Bear Lake.

I think the Church has wanted to avoid this show-down, expecting that John would turn it into a media circus and apostate feeding frenzy. Knowing this, John has felt he could ramp-up the attacks without compunction. Finally, the Church has said "enough".

President King loses either way. If he had acted on his own, he would run the risk of angering someone at headquarters who would blame him for being too harsh. If he waits, he is accused as being soft on apostasy and not dealing with a festering problem. I have sympathy for his lose-lose position. Still, I think in this case, at this time, the decision has been made above President King's pay grade.

[_ludwigm]

...
cleansing of the Shire
...
Fahrenheit 451
...

what the hell are you reading? seriously. what in the hell are you reading? because your comments do not seem to connect at all, in the slightest, to the links you posted.

The keyword is association.

Somebody can follow it, somebody can't. If You were Shades, 80% of moksha's comments would end up in Outer Darkness as blatant derailment.

I like moksha, because he (?) is a puzzle (or challenge) for me --- I am happy enough if I can decode half of his associations.
I've decoded this one above. It fits.

[_Tchild]

99.5 percent of excommunications probably occur at the local level by local leaders following the rule book of the church; fornications, adulteries, criminal matters, etc etc.

If a person doesn't want to abide the church's ethics and rules, then the church should show them the door. Seems rather simple to me.

[_Zadok]

If a person doesn't want to abide the church's ethics and rules, then the church should show them the door. Seems rather simple to me.

Got no problem with that for the person who doesn't want to be a member any more. But what about the person who still believes, and wants to participate and abide by the rules. Perhaps they made a mistake, but are now seriously trying to do the right thing and make things right in their life... The savior said forgive everyone, but the Church only forgives after they have embarrassed and humiliated you.

[_bcspace]

How has the Church benefited from using Excommunication?

I know not a few people who, because of the threat of possible excommunication, are afraid to openly teach their false beliefs and lying narratives in Church on Sunday and have to tip toe around the subject every other day of the week among their families unless it's done in secret. Untold hundreds, if not thousands, have been reduced to muttering about Daniel Peterson instead of using their resources and time to actually attack the Church. Shall we include many of you in that number?

If you're so sure of your beliefs and that you can rock the Church to it's foundations, come on up and testify.

Satan, eat my shorts!

So plenty of members who are weak in the faith are saved by the excommunication of apostates. In addition, the excommicatee is also saved...3 Nephi 18:28-29 etc. etc.

[_Tchild]

If a person doesn't want to abide the church's ethics and rules, then the church should show them the door. Seems rather simple to me.

Got no problem with that for the person who doesn't want to be a member any more. But what about the person who still believes, and wants to participate and abide by the rules. Perhaps they made a mistake, but are now seriously trying to do the right thing and make things right in their life... The savior said forgive everyone, but the Church only forgives after they have embarrassed and humiliated you.

Such a person is not the vocal spokesperson who creates dialog to change church policies and practices outside of the hierarchial venues established by the church, ie John Delhin or Kate Kelly...in my opinion.

If you bed your neighbor's wife, get excommunicated and then go through the process of reinstatement, that ain't what is being discussed.

[_Symmachus]

How has the Church benefited from using Excommunication?

This is like asking how the Human Resource vampires benefit when they lay someone off.

It's for you not to know and for them not to give damn.

[_Zadok]

If you bed your neighbor's wife, get excommunicated and then go through the process of reinstatement, that ain't what is being discussed.

I fear you missed my point, which is... for the believing member, excommunication is the most traumatic spiritual event which can be inflicted upon another human being.

Sure, there is a way back for the believer, but I fear you fail to recognize the abuse which occurs as the penitent believer tries to walk that path. First there is a MINIMUM of one year from excommunication and potential for re-baptism. During that time the believer is forced to wear the scarlet X on their forehead for all the ward to see and mock. Then, there is a MINIMUM of one additional year before the believer may have his priesthood restored. (Unwritten is a TWO year wait if the alleged infraction was homosexual in nature).

The question is what does the Church gain from excommunication. And I still hold that the answer is that it is a brutal abusive whip, to keep other members in line!