We do indeed live in a universe where it is only by proving, or testing, contraries or paradoxes, that truth is made manifest. Fifty years earlier, William Blake, certainly another prophetic tragic quester, had said, "Without contraries is no progression," and warned, "Whoever tries to reconcile [the contraries] seeks to destroy existence.
And taking it a step further...
Kathleen Taylor:
There’s a place for information,” Dr. Taylor says. “We need to know stuff. But we need to move beyond that and challenge our perception of the world. If you always hang around with those you agree with and read things that agree with what you already know, you’re not going to wrestle with your established brain connections.
So you have different strokes from different folks.
MG -
Using these examples might make more sense if either of these two folks held positions and opinions that were considered relevant by the leadership of the Church.
England may have been well-known in some circles for his writings, but (from Wikipedia) in 1981 "received a letter from Apostle Bruce R. McConkie chastising him for publicly advocating the view that God's eternal progression includes learning new truths. According to historian Claudia Bushman, "the McConkie-England disagreement revealed the division between theological conservatives and liberals within the believing camp and, in a larger sense, the tensions between authoritarian control versus free expression."
As for Kathleen Taylor - she's a professor at St. Mary’s College of California, so I'm not sure why her quote has been referenced. I note that this quote (along with the Englund quote above) appears on an old post at LoGP (http://www.lifeongoldplates.com/2010_01_24_archive.html) regarding challenging one's own closely-held assumptions. As far as i know she is not a Church member or speaking a viewpoint commonly held amongst a large segment of the LDS population. Given the large number of statements issued by Church Leadership exhorting the membership to follow Church Leadership teachings + direction only, I cannot see that Taylor's suggestions - as an outsider - for challenging the status quo assumptions are about to supplant those statements.
canpakes wrote:Using these examples might make more sense if either of these two folks held positions and opinions that were considered relevant by the leadership of the Church.
England may have been well-known in some circles for his writings, but (from Wikipedia) in 1981 "received a letter from Apostle Bruce R. McConkie chastising him for publicly advocating the view that God's eternal progression includes learning new truths. According to historian Claudia Bushman, "the McConkie-England disagreement revealed the division between theological conservatives and liberals within the believing camp and, in a larger sense, the tensions between authoritarian control versus free expression."
As for Kathleen Taylor - she's a professor at St. Mary’s College of California, so I'm not sure why her quote has been referenced. I note that this quote (along with the Englund quote above) appears on an old post at LoGP (http://www.lifeongoldplates.com/2010_01_24_archive.html) regarding challenging one's own closely-held assumptions. As far as i know she is not a Church member or speaking a viewpoint commonly held amongst a large segment of the LDS population. Given the large number of statements issued by Church Leadership exhorting the membership to follow Church Leadership teachings + direction only, I cannot see that Taylor's suggestions - as an outsider - for challenging the status quo assumptions are about to supplant those statements.
As members of the church we are taught that truth is truth...whatever its source. England, Taylor, or anyone else. It is incumbent on us as individuals to "choose the right" and let the consequence follow. We sing a song that reinforces this concept.
Yes, Eugene England had a run in with Elder McConkie. And it was a rough go for him. It was unfortunate. That episode may well have been an example of unrighteous dominion.
mentalgymnast wrote:As members of the church we are taught that truth is truth...whatever its source.
Members are also taught that the source of 'truth' to be trusted is Church leadership, even to the point that if science conflicts with the scriptures, then the scriptures still prevail.
mentalgymnast wrote:It is incumbent on us as individuals to "choose the right" and let the consequence follow.
The right choice being that which has been claimed by the Church to be such, with the consequences to follow also as defined by the Church.
I do understand what you are saying, but I just don't think that it is a well-accepted message by the membership, nor one endorsed by the Leadership without the conditions and limitations that I'm mentioning here... which effectively nullify it.
mentalgymnast wrote:As members of the church we are taught that truth is truth...whatever its source. England, Taylor, or anyone else. It is incumbent on us as individuals to "choose the right" and let the consequence follow. We sing a song that reinforces this concept.
That's utterly untrue. Members are taught that some things that are true aren't useful. That teachers aren't to teach all the truth. That only Church approved sources are to be relied upon for finding out the truth. That something's just have to be taken on faith etc.
As for your song, show me where that song "Choose the right" articulates members are to seek out the truth and let the consequences follow? You are conflating with "Do what is right let the consequence follow..." which is a song telling members to be obedient. 'Choose the right' is also a song extolling obedience as a virtue.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
mentalgymnast wrote: As members of the church we are taught that truth is truth...whatever its source. England, Taylor, or anyone else. It is incumbent on us as individuals to "choose the right" and let the consequence follow. We sing a song that reinforces this concept.
Yes, Eugene England had a run in with Elder McConkie. And it was a rough go for him. It was unfortunate. That episode may well have been an example of unrighteous dominion.
Regards, MG
This has never been, in all the history of the church of the utmost importance to Mormon leaders. They ignore the truth and choose what is convenient for them. There are too many examples in nearly every administration of this. Choosing the "right", would then be ALWAYS telling the truth. Lying in any circumstance that suited them is/was Standard Operating Procedure for the Mormon Hierarchy at any time. You can't reconcile what they teach with what they do. Never could and never will.
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door; Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors. One focal point in a random world can change your direction: One step where events converge may alter your perception.
mentalgymnast wrote:As members of the church we are taught that truth is truth...whatever its source. England, Taylor, or anyone else. It is incumbent on us as individuals to "choose the right" and let the consequence follow. We sing a song that reinforces this concept.
That's utterly untrue. Members are taught that some things that are true aren't useful. That teachers aren't to teach all the truth. That only Church approved sources are to be relied upon for finding out the truth. That something's just have to be taken on faith etc.
As for your song, show me where that song "Choose the right" articulates members are to seek out the truth and let the consequences follow? You are conflating with "Do what is right let the consequence follow..." which is a song telling members to be obedient. 'Choose the right' is also a song extolling obedience as a virtue.
Yes, what they SAY is ALWAYS the truth, because they claim to be the "Oracles of God". If you don't agree, it is YOU who are "out of harmony" and lying. He who has the gold makes the rules. He who has the Authority has the Spirit. No matter what. If you are obedient you too, have the Spirit.
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door; Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors. One focal point in a random world can change your direction: One step where events converge may alter your perception.
Finn the human wrote: The truly faithful should draw their moral line in the sand on anything that the prophet speaks, prepared or extemporaneous, relevant or extraneous, mundane etc.
The problem is this isn't a moral line. It is merely fundamentalist divine command theory, where you do something because you were told to do it, by someone you think is God's emissary, without regard to whether you independently determine that what you have been told to do or not do is moral (or even relevant to morality, like drinking coffee). Morality does not factor into it at all, since morality is simply equated with obedience. As with the Euthyphro dilemma, if you are doing something just because a self-proclaimed spokesman for God tells you, then morality becomes completely arbitrarily.
And yet the above is exactly what the LDS church explicitly tells its members they should do.
It's the same model as military organizations and dictatorships. Surprise!
On January 27, 1860, Orson Pratt met with the First Presidency and most of the Authorities of the Church to discuss certain of Pratt’s teachings, especially some found in his periodical, The Seer. The meeting did not go well, because Pratt could not agree with two of Brigham Young’s doctrines, that God was Adam, and was still progressing in knowledge. But a few days later, Pratt had come around, and made this statement to the assembled Church:
“This I consider is a very important item—Behold, "I say unto you, Be one; and if ye are not one, ye are not mine." This is very pointed, plain, and definite language, that no man can misunderstand. Upon what principle are we to he one? It is by hearkening in all things to that eternal and everlasting Priesthood which has been conferred upon mortal man upon the earth. When I say that Priesthood, I mean the individual who holds the keys thereof. He is the standard—the living oracle to the Church.
"But," says one, "suppose that we hearken to the word of God in the Old and New Testament—suppose that we hearken to the word of God in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants—suppose we hearken to the word of God in the Book of Mormon, and at the same time we feel disposed in our hearts to lay aside the living oracles, what then? I would answer, in the first place, that the premises are false. Why? The very moment that we set aside the living oracles we set aside the revelations of God. Why? Because the revelations of God command us plainly that we shall hearken to the living oracles. Hence, if we undertake to follow the written word and at the same time do not give heed to the living oracles of God, the written word will condemn us: it shows that we do not follow it according to our profession. This is what I wish to bring home to myself as an individual; and if the same thing will suit any other person in the congregation, I hope that he will take it home to himself.
"But," inquires one, "how is it that you are going to apply this to yourself?" I will tell you. But first let me quote from another revelation contained in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. [Section 21:1-5] Perhaps I had better read the passage which I wish now to bring to your understanding:—"Behold, there shall be a record kept among you; and in it thou shalt be called a Seer, a Translator, a Prophet, an Apostle of Jesus Christ, an Elder of the church, through the will of God the Father and the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, being inspired of the Holy Ghost to lay the foundation thereof, and to build it up unto the most holy faith; which Church was organized and established in the year of our Lord, eighteen hundred and thirty, in the fourth month, and in the sixth day of the month which is called April. Wherefore (meaning the Church,) thou shalt give heed unto his words and commandments, which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me; for his word shall ye receive as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith."
Here, then, we perceive what is binding upon the Church of the living God, what was binding upon them thirty years ago, and what has been binding upon them ever since, from the day that it was given, until the day the Prophet was martyred, down until the year 1860, and until the present moment of time. All this time there have been a kingdom and Church of the living God on the earth, and a man placed at the head of that Church to govern, direct, counsel, preach, exhort, testify, and speak the truth to the people, and counsel them in the things pertaining to their duties and pertaining to the kingdom of God.” (Orson Pratt, John Dehlin, Vol. 7, p.372-73 January 29, 1860.)
The "truth" to Pratt, was what Brigham Young said. Even though Adam-god contradicted the Bible it did not matter, for Brigham Young held the keys, and his words were to be received as if from the mouth of God. A few months later, Apostle Heber C. Kimball would declare,
“This is the religion of Jesus Christ as taught in these books—the Bible and the Book of Mormon, and it is in accordance with that which is in my breast and which is a better book, for it is life in Christ; and that living being that receives light and intelligence from the heavens through the revelations of the Holy Ghost is a living oracle. It is the living Oracle that is within us that will guide us in the way of life.
Now, you require brother Brigham to live in that manner that he can hold the oracles of God and be to you a living oracle—the mouthpiece of the Almighty, to communicate line upon line, and precept upon precept and have the word of truth constantly on hand. Now, why should you require more of the head than of the other members? The Lord has said that upon those members that you consider the least honourable he has conferred the most honour; and he will confer upon every man and woman that honours the Priesthood, the Presidency, the Bishops, and all the members of the body. We cannot honour God except we honour his authority: there is no possible way of honouring the kingdom of God only by honouring its authorities.” (Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8, p. 86, June 3, 1860). As early as 1843 Brigham Young emphasized that the Quorum of the Twelve should follow their superiors without asking questions:
“In the evening I met with the Quorum; Bro. Joseph was not present. B. Young was called to the chair who addressed the meeting in a very feeling manner and interesting to our minds. He reasoned clearly that we should follow our file leaders and our Savior in all His laws and commandments without asking any questions why they were so.” (Wilford Woodruff Journals, December 10, 1843)
Are they worthy? Apostle Alonzo A. Hinckley (uncle of Gordon B. Hinckley) would speak of the ‘oracles of God’ in a 1935 General Conference Address. He states that “my brethren live in the love and favor of God and that they carry their responsibilities with fidelity.” He recognized the “unswerving integrity under every condition of life,” of President Heber J. Grant, and that his counselor J. Reuben Clark, was “a born straight thinker, a righteous defender of the truth, is a man of undeviating and unfaltering devotion to the Church” and that David O. McKay with his “manly physique, a perfect physical specimen,” was “presided over by a trained and a keen mind,” and that “he enjoys a spirituality that has made him, not of his own volition but by common consent, the idol of youth.” He then concludes that,
“These men constitute the Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the oracles of God chosen to receive the mind and the will and the word of the Lord and to impart it unto the people. I bear testimony that the avenues of revelation are open. The brethren are worthy. Jesus is at the helm. This is his work and he leads his servants.”
“God bless the leaders of Zion and bring into our hearts a renewed felling of reverence, that henceforth their voices, as they speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost, shall be unto us as the voice of God.” (Alonzo A. Hinckley, Conference Report, October 1935, p. 24.)
What has changed? Nothing. Worthiness (Priesthood) + The "Holy Ghost" = Oracles of God = Jesus = always right.
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door; Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors. One focal point in a random world can change your direction: One step where events converge may alter your perception.
"If the general authorities do not teach something today, it is not part of our doctrine today. That does not, however, mean that a particular teaching is untrue. A teaching may be true and yet not a part of what is taught and emphasized by the Church today. In fact, if the Brethren do not teach it today, if it is not taught directly in the standard works, or if it is not found in our correlated curriculum, whether it is true or not may actually be irrelevant." - Robert Millet, Getting at the Truth, p. 66
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door; Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors. One focal point in a random world can change your direction: One step where events converge may alter your perception.
O God bless Brigham Young; Bless him and all that bless him: Waste them away, O God, we pray, Who, rising to oppose him, Contend with thee. O God, bless Brigham Young; Preserve his health and vigor: We pray Thee, give him pow'r to live Until the resurrection Gives back our dead. Bless thou thy chosen ones, Who prompt this mighty people To God-like worth -- restoring earth -- By faith and works, prolonging The life of man. Bless all thy servants, Lord, Who wield the holy Priesthood; Till through its light -- its grace and might, To thy eternal kingdom, All nations bow. Long live the wise and just, To guide the hosts of Israel; Till Ephraim reigns o'er his domains, And Judah's royal sceptre Shall be restor'd. Long, long live Brigham Young, To battle with tradition-- To break in twain each yoke and chain, And give the world its freedom, And truth its throne.
--Eliza R. Snow, published in Deseret News, March 12, 1862.
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door; Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors. One focal point in a random world can change your direction: One step where events converge may alter your perception.
