Adult or Grown Up & Fowler's Stage 5
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_Fence Sitter
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Re: Adult or Grown Up & Fowler's Stage 5
Imagine that, a forum about Mormonisn is frequented by people who want to talk about religion and Mormonism.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
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_Dr. Shades
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Re: Adult or Grown Up & Fowler's Stage 5
Amore wrote:However, after a few years, I've moved on. Why haven't more people moved on too?
More have moved on too.
Why get stuck in the sketicism or anger?
Define "stuck."
What purpose does it serve besides making your life and those around you hell?
Will you please give us a list of names of those who are making their own lives and the lives of those around them "Hell?"
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"
--Louis Midgley
--Louis Midgley
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_Gadianton
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Re: Adult or Grown Up & Fowler's Stage 5
Hi Amore,
It's difficult to say the question was profound because we don't know the motives behind the question. The fact that you interpreted it to undergird the distinction between biological and social maturity doesn't mean something profound was asked. The child could have been confused over nothing more than there being two different words that seem to mean the same thing.
As for Fowler, I think you need to be careful any time you play psychologist for yourself. If credit card companies really thought folks could improve their reliability with feedback then they'd reveal their algorithms for calculating a credit score, and people would become more responsible consumers and it's win-win. As it is, at best, creditors assume people will uncover the weaknesses of the algorithm and game the system without actually becoming more responsible. Likewise, a psychiatrist could reveal all her secret notes about you, but if you have a vested interest in getting better, then there is a risk you may figure out what actions you superficially need to take to show improvement while not actually making any progress.
People who get into Fowler often feign themselves as stage 5-ers with depth and maturity, but if Fowler is legit, then these behavior patterns are pretty deeply ingrained in a person, and it's unreasonable to think one can pick up some New Age book at Barnes and Noble and transform themselves into a stage 5 by mimicking traits as they are ham-fistedly understood. Such a person may also incorrectly find people assumed obstinate to operate at a lower stage of faith or enlightenment based purely on happenstance behaviors.
It's kind of funny, because on the one hand a person into Fowler takes the time to get the entire system down, and then forgivingly selects their own hits in the maturity realm as evidence of enlightenment while on the other hand, harshly evaluates behaviors of people not liked as evidence of deficiency. Of course, the person under scrutiny is likely being taken without much context, and most certainly either isn't aware of or concerned with Fowler, and so isn't inflating their game as the observer who is into Fowler is doing.
It's difficult to say the question was profound because we don't know the motives behind the question. The fact that you interpreted it to undergird the distinction between biological and social maturity doesn't mean something profound was asked. The child could have been confused over nothing more than there being two different words that seem to mean the same thing.
As for Fowler, I think you need to be careful any time you play psychologist for yourself. If credit card companies really thought folks could improve their reliability with feedback then they'd reveal their algorithms for calculating a credit score, and people would become more responsible consumers and it's win-win. As it is, at best, creditors assume people will uncover the weaknesses of the algorithm and game the system without actually becoming more responsible. Likewise, a psychiatrist could reveal all her secret notes about you, but if you have a vested interest in getting better, then there is a risk you may figure out what actions you superficially need to take to show improvement while not actually making any progress.
People who get into Fowler often feign themselves as stage 5-ers with depth and maturity, but if Fowler is legit, then these behavior patterns are pretty deeply ingrained in a person, and it's unreasonable to think one can pick up some New Age book at Barnes and Noble and transform themselves into a stage 5 by mimicking traits as they are ham-fistedly understood. Such a person may also incorrectly find people assumed obstinate to operate at a lower stage of faith or enlightenment based purely on happenstance behaviors.
It's kind of funny, because on the one hand a person into Fowler takes the time to get the entire system down, and then forgivingly selects their own hits in the maturity realm as evidence of enlightenment while on the other hand, harshly evaluates behaviors of people not liked as evidence of deficiency. Of course, the person under scrutiny is likely being taken without much context, and most certainly either isn't aware of or concerned with Fowler, and so isn't inflating their game as the observer who is into Fowler is doing.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.
LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
Re: Adult or Grown Up & Fowler's Stage 5
Gadianton wrote:It's kind of funny, because on the one hand a person into Fowler takes the time to get the entire system down, and then forgivingly selects their own hits in the maturity realm as evidence of enlightenment while on the other hand, harshly evaluates behaviors of people not liked as evidence of deficiency. Of course, the person under scrutiny is likely being taken without much context, and most certainly either isn't aware of or concerned with Fowler, and so isn't inflating their game as the observer who is into Fowler is doing.
Er, yes.
That seems quite plausible. But it would help to make your point stronger if you could cite any examples of posters on this board who might have the characteristics you identify.
Can you think of any?
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
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_I have a question
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Re: Adult or Grown Up & Fowler's Stage 5
Good evening, I have a question:
Are you sure he wasn't asking you in order to make a rhetorical point?
Legal age to do what?
So you believe a 14 year old can be considered a grown up?
That seems arbitrary.
That seems deliberately condescending and inflammatory, would you say that makes you are grown up, or simply an adult?
Because religion is simply a polarising set of things people want to believe in that are deliberately positioned as true or false.
Amore wrote:My son asked a profound question...
"What is the difference between an adult and a grown up?"
Are you sure he wasn't asking you in order to make a rhetorical point?
An adult is one who is of legal age: 18, or "a person who is fully grown or developed" - with a focus on physical development.
Not much more qualifications required.
Legal age to do what?
I consider a grown-up is one who has matured in various ways... physically, emotionally, intellectually, spiritually and in character/integrity.
So you believe a 14 year old can be considered a grown up?
Context: he asked this while I was explaining fowler's stages of faith development.
http://www.psychologycharts.com/james-f ... faith.html
I'd say a grown up has reached stage 5.
That seems arbitrary.
I've noticed only a handful of people on this forum who seem to have gotten passed the all-or-nothing thinking and onto thinking with integrity (paradoxical thinking).
That seems deliberately condescending and inflammatory, would you say that makes you are grown up, or simply an adult?
Why do so many get stuck on religion or rejecting it?
Because religion is simply a polarising set of things people want to believe in that are deliberately positioned as true or false.
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
Re: Adult or Grown Up & Fowler's Stage 5
I have a question wrote:...Amore wrote:Why do so many get stuck on religion or rejecting it?
Because religion is simply a polarising set of things people want to believe in that are deliberately positioned as true or false.
Mormonism (the main topic of this board) has repeatedly been presented by its leaders as an 'all or nothing; no half measures' kind of belief.
So it is not unreasonable to react by saying. 'OK. I reject it all'. That is just paying the religion sufficient respect to take it on its own terms. Some religions may allow wiggle room for partial belief, but not this one.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
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_I have a question
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Re: Adult or Grown Up & Fowler's Stage 5
Chap wrote:Mormonism (the main topic of this board) has repeatedly been presented by its leaders as an 'all or nothing; no half measures' kind of belief.
So it is not unreasonable to react by saying. 'OK. I reject it all'. That is just paying the religion sufficient respect to take it on its own terms. Some religions may allow wiggle room for partial belief, but not this one.
Gordon Hinckley (President of the Church), April 2003
Each of us has to face the matter—either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing.
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... y?lang=eng
When the religion itself forces an all-or-nothing proposition one can hardly point to Fowlers and go "you all lack integrity" in reference to posters on a Mormon discussions board. Perhaps Amore might take some time to better understand the religion upon which he is commentating. I mean, that would be the grown up thing to do....right?
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
Re: Adult or Grown Up & Fowler's Stage 5
I guess I can't force you to see the obsessive skepticism and anger spewed out over this "discussion" forum.
And I'm not claiming to be enlightened - far from it.
I just would like to have some discussion about how Mormonism was a springboard not just a pain in the ass.
There are some good things we've attained from religion - it's not all bad (not all-or-nothing).
Maybe it's just people who are addicted to forums - religious or anti-religious who tend to get stuck believing whatever they've or one of their new herd has written in the PAST.
Well, if and when you want to have a discussion about moving on spiritually from Mormonism and anti-Mormonism, let me know.
There are countless topics to explore.
And I'm not claiming to be enlightened - far from it.
I just would like to have some discussion about how Mormonism was a springboard not just a pain in the ass.
There are some good things we've attained from religion - it's not all bad (not all-or-nothing).
Maybe it's just people who are addicted to forums - religious or anti-religious who tend to get stuck believing whatever they've or one of their new herd has written in the PAST.
Well, if and when you want to have a discussion about moving on spiritually from Mormonism and anti-Mormonism, let me know.
There are countless topics to explore.
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_I have a question
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Re: Adult or Grown Up & Fowler's Stage 5
Amore wrote:Well, if and when you want to have a discussion about moving on spiritually from Mormonism and anti-Mormonism, let me know.
There are countless topics to explore.
Perhaps you could start a thread about moving on spiritually from Mormonism or Anti-Mormonism, as opposed to one where you open by painting the forums posters as one-minded angry people who lack integrity.
Just a thought.
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
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_SteelHead
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Re: Adult or Grown Up & Fowler's Stage 5
Oh the irony..... Hey Amore, is stage V on the scale the one where you have abandoned black and white thinking?
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.
Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin