Let's all self-identify as Mormons

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_Sanctorian
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Re: Let's all self-identify as Mormons

Post by _Sanctorian »

lostindc wrote:I 100% self-identify as Mormon. At this point in my life I believe that Joseph Smith was a fraud, the Book of Mormon is man-made, prophets don't exist in the Mormon sense, Doctrine and Covenants is an extremely concerning text, and that if God does in fact exist, then God either doesn't have the power many believe God does or God is not all that great of a whatever God is.

I am a Mormon. No one can take that away from me. Other Mormons like me exist, and we're just as Mormon as anyone else that claims to be Mormon. Furthermore, i love my Mormon tribe and hope I have chances to show love for Mormons and non-Mormons.


Don't tell Mak. He'll claim you are being dishonest and using rhetoric.
I'm a Ziontologist. I self identify as such.
_maklelan
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Re: Let's all self-identify as Mormons

Post by _maklelan »

RockSlider wrote:Authority ... what authority are you talking about Mak? Priesthood Authority? Leadership Authority? Ownership Authority? Legal Authority?


Group authority. A place at the community's table.

RockSlider wrote:I work for a very large Corporation, I'm a member of that corporation and yet I hold a position with NO authority to speak for that Corporation ("actionable violation of employee handbook rules") There are a few individuals within the corporation who have authority to address specific issues.

In the Mormonism I know, the general membership have no authority to speak for the Church (actionable violation, with a history), Bishops have some authority, SP's some etc.


The corporation of the LDS Church is a different and more limited entity from "Mormonism."

RockSlider wrote:Now of course this is in the view of the ecclesiastical chain of authority. And yet the Mormon Doctrine (well once upon a time anyway) would have placed a Patriarch as the highest order of Authority available to a man.

Mak, I'm "inactive" and bitter towards the corporation. And yet I'm Mormon and the Patriarch of two generations so far. Does that Authority (Patriarch) give me the right to speak of what Mormonism is?


It absolutely gives you a seat at the table.
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_Sanctorian
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Re: Let's all self-identify as Mormons

Post by _Sanctorian »

maklelan wrote:
RockSlider wrote:Authority ... what authority are you talking about Mak? Priesthood Authority? Leadership Authority? Ownership Authority? Legal Authority?


Group authority. A place at the community's table.

RockSlider wrote:I work for a very large Corporation, I'm a member of that corporation and yet I hold a position with NO authority to speak for that Corporation ("actionable violation of employee handbook rules") There are a few individuals within the corporation who have authority to address specific issues.

In the Mormonism I know, the general membership have no authority to speak for the Church (actionable violation, with a history), Bishops have some authority, SP's some etc.


The corporation of the LDS Church is a different and more limited entity from "Mormonism."

RockSlider wrote:Now of course this is in the view of the ecclesiastical chain of authority. And yet the Mormon Doctrine (well once upon a time anyway) would have placed a Patriarch as the highest order of Authority available to a man.

Mak, I'm "inactive" and bitter towards the corporation. And yet I'm Mormon and the Patriarch of two generations so far. Does that Authority (Patriarch) give me the right to speak of what Mormonism is?


It absolutely gives you a seat at the table.


Where's my seat???
I'm a Ziontologist. I self identify as such.
_Gadianton
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Re: Let's all self-identify as Mormons

Post by _Gadianton »

Sanctorian wrote: It's all very confusing in New Mormonism. I think that's the point. Make it as confusing as possible so Mormonism is no longer identified by any of it's unique (weird by societies standards) identifiers.


Mak certainly hasn't told us what model he's using or given us a brief description or example of the model, that's for sure. He's offered bits and pieces and that's all. I have no problem believing his model is considered the best model for describing religious groups. I have a major problem believing his instructors would agree with him that his model has any relevance to this discussion board, in the respect of dismissing critical arguments.

I'm going to try another way of explaining this. I mentioned that a few years back a religion student in grad school pulled the same stunt of blasting critics for their obsession with the enlightenment and dropped some of the same kind of lingo, but this person's interest wasn't sociology. In particular, this person would obsessively ask critics what their definition of a prophet was. Critics would blast Joseph Smith for not being a prophet for this or that reason, but the ace up this person's sleeve was graduate training that gave a descriptive definition of prophets. It doesn't matter what that definition was, let's say it was having a following of 500 people and enacting 5 social changes. If Joseph Smith had a following of 500 people and enacted 5 social changes then by golly he was a prophet. Believers and critics, however, primarily argue over normative accounts of prophets, which contain value judgments -- their concern is over what a prophet should be. That's out of scope for most of academics. The Book of Mormon could be shown to be a word-for-word copy of Manuscript Found, but a serious source critic would be overstepping boundaries to conclude the Book of Mormon was a fraud. However, just because scholarship is ill-suited to determine which prophets are true prophets and which are false prophets in the same way a psychiatrist can't tell you if a schizophrenic is a good person or a bad person, that doesn't mean it's not an important concern and that no one should discuss it.

What a social theory says about Mormon beliefs descriptively and what a true foundational Mormon belief really is, or whether there is such a thing or isn't, are different subjects. And I think Mak is right in some ways with what he's saying, but I think he's either wrong, or not forthcoming in clarifying the situation enough to where reasonable people could see his point. Abuse of the social theory of Mormonism follows the prophet example I gave, however, I think it's a little more complicated, which is why I offered the prophet example as a starting point, and later tonight or tomorrow I'll flesh out why I think Mak is right or wrong about critics, depending on what he means.
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_Kishkumen
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Re: Let's all self-identify as Mormons

Post by _Kishkumen »

Frankly, I don't give a damn whether anyone else counts me as Mormon or not. My self-identification is my own prerogative.
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_Polygamy-Porter
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Re: Let's all self-identify as Mormons

Post by _Polygamy-Porter »

I am a husband, father, a seeker of facts and concrete truths... and


I am a Mormon.

The worst kind!! Bwwaaahahahahahah! At least to people who make a living off the lie!

While I never wasted two years of my youth on being part of the Monson/Hinckley youth sales force, I am now a missionary and preach truth and FACTS.

I have credit for 30 people who have stopped funding the Corporation of the President® a.k.a. LDS Inc. I am sure I have countless others.

Why just this weekend I had the opportunity whilst on a walk about date with my new wife in downtown to share the truth and FACTS about LDS Inc.

After seeing a couple speak with Mormon missionaries trolling for suckers, we quickly swooped in and shared the truth and light with our new found friends. I even have cards that I hand out with web addresses and information on them in my wallet at all times.

So, yes, my name is still on the records of LDS Inc as a full fledged member. This allows me to approach current members!
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_moksha
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Re: Let's all self-identify as Mormons

Post by _moksha »

Captain Picard realized that the only way he was able to understand the Borg was by experiencing Borgness for himself. That was easy to accomplish because their missionaries came to him.
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_sunstoned
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Re: Let's all self-identify as Mormons

Post by _sunstoned »

I have put in enough time, which is most of my life including two full time years, money, and effort into Mormonism to self-identify as a Mormon. It was a wasted venture for me, and I am not past the anger stage yet. So right now I do not self-identify as Mormon. When people ask, I tell them I am not affiliated with any church.
_RockSlider
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Re: Let's all self-identify as Mormons

Post by _RockSlider »

maklelan wrote:It absolutely gives you a seat at the table.


So do you and I have equal authority at this table? Is there a chairman to this table. Do the young and strong carry weight, or the old and experienced? Does priesthood carry any weight as mentioned before?

eta:

Based on what I've read, I would have assume you would count me among the out-group.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Oct 15, 2015 5:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
_RockSlider
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Re: Let's all self-identify as Mormons

Post by _RockSlider »

sunstoned wrote:I have put in enough time, which is most of my life including two full time years, money, and effort into Mormonism to self-identify as a Mormon. It was a wasted venture for me, and I am not past the anger stage yet. So right now I do not self-identify as Mormon. When people ask, I tell them I am not affiliated with any church.


What's crazy is that I'm embarrassed to vocally/externally admit identify as Mormon, and yet I still do.
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