Never-Mormon Only Thread!

[_Jersey Girl]

Dear and beloved fellow Never-Mormons

I have been asked (via a few PM's) to resurrect this thread for a particular purpose.

The purpose is to provide a place where Never-Mormons can offer their opinions/perspectives/thoughts/views about the recent LDS church policy change.

These views might deliver some uniqueness, as they will not be impacted, influenced, and or infected with and/or by a personal past experience of being an Ex-Mormon.

So.....If you are a Never-Mormon and you would like to share your thoughts about this - please feel free to do so.

Peace,
Ceeboo

I've already done it on my own thread. Here's a copy.

Hello Folks,

I just want to share with you a different perspective. I've been thinking about the new policies on same-sex parents and their children ever since I became aware of it. Last night when I was praying, a thought occurred to me that has more to do with me than it does you. Some of you folks have known me from the first board I ever posted on 16 years ago. You saw what my attitudes were regarding the LDS Church and Mormonism. I started researching Mormonism (first reading books) to prove my pastor wrong about things that he'd said about LDS then once I ended up on RFM reading the exit stories, one story in particular resonated with me because it had to do with the church's perspectives regarding women and girls. A little girl and her mother were why I set out on my journey. It was posted by Donna Banta. I'm sure that some of you know her. We corresponded via email for quite some time (before I started posting online) and she gave me additional information about the LDS Church that left me so incredibly angry. And that angry person is who started posting on 2think. I was angry because I believed that the LDS Church was lying to my friend about a great many things, because I never heard any of them from her.

I believed the church was hurting her and I became as "anti" as it gets.

I can give you a small demonstration of what I was like back then in my interaction with LDS. I recall one male LDS poster referring to himself as my "brother in Christ". My knee jerk response was, "You are NOT my brother!" I was so angry, so pissed, all the time at almost any defending LDS poster. Yes, I called the church a "cult", "counterfeit Christianity", yes, I said they worship "another Jesus" and yes, I was arrogant and condescending as hell when it came to Mormon related discussion. And yes, I had my ass handed to me by ex-LDS and atheists, but that's another topic.

If anyone had told me back then that some event would have caused such a disturbance in the church that LDS would leave in droves or TBM's would publicly speak out against the church, I would have issued a celebratory, "Thank God!", and I would have seen it as a victory over a cult. As I've been reading the board and news reports this week, I realized that just such an event has taken place. In all my years on LDS related boards, I've never seen anything like this. It's just the kind of ripple effect I could have only dreamed of all those years ago.

Somewhere along the way, I settled down and by the time I landed on ZLMB I had determined that I would use my time there asking LDS exactly what they believed about certain things, and I learned to "speak your language". I think I did a pretty good job of learning and understanding your perspectives and what they meant to you, because I got to the point where I could take your "side" of an argument and defend your beliefs. I smiled whenever anyone mistook me for an LDS. :-) It was on ZLMB that some folks started to confide in me, sharing their personal doubts privately and I tried to be an accepting "listener" and source of support. None of those folks risked anything by sharing with me, because I wasn't part of their world. I think you all understand what I mean.

Last night, I realized that while I only dreamed about something like this happening, I didn't dream it this way.

The "old Jersey" would have been celebrating right now, this one feels heartsick and once again, I'm angry as hell at the LDS Church. I can't stand the thought of people being hurt by the very place that should be protecting their spirit and the spirit of their children. I can't stand the thought that "out there" there are LDS youth who are becoming increasingly burdened and are being set up for risk of self harm and suicide. I am no stranger to either of those things. (No details, so don't bother asking). It's one thing when a youth voluntarily decides it wants no more to do with a church. It's quite another to feel rejected and made to feel that you are "less than" someone else by that church.

I don't worry about those of you who have decided that this is it, you're out. You're going to be okay one way or another because you've got the strength to draw the line. I worry about those of you who are rightly more disturbed than I am about these new policies and who are closer to the situation than I'll ever be. I worry about those of you who are in deep conflict right now. Some of you have shared that you've found yourself snapping at people close to you. I've been snapping, too.

I just wanted you all to know that while I don't walk the mile in your moccasins, that I feel you. And while I am not directly in conflict as some of you are, I share your sense of disgust, your deep concerns, I share the feeling that a great many people have been sucker punched, including the children.

I want to say this, too. If you need some place to vent, my private messages are all yours. I promise I won't preach anything to you.

I know this post is a choppy read. I've typed it just as it came to me. Pretty bumpy ride right now, folks.

Friendly love,

Jersey

http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=39801

[_Quasimodo]

Dear and beloved fellow Never-Mormons

I have been asked (via a few PM's) to resurrect this thread for a particular purpose.

The purpose is to provide a place where Never-Mormons can offer their opinions/perspectives/thoughts/views about the recent LDS church policy change.

These views might deliver some uniqueness, as they will not be impacted, influenced, and or infected with and/or by a personal past experience of being an Ex-Mormon.

So.....If you are a Never-Mormon and you would like to share your thoughts about this - please feel free to do so.

Peace,
Ceeboo

One of the biggest regrets I have in being a nevermo is not being able to throw my LDS resignation letter on the pile of thousands that is accumulating. It must be a very busy week at the COB.

A very regrettable decision on the part of the powers that be. I would have thought that the Prop 8 debacle would have taught them a lesson.

[_Manetho]

Oh no!

[_Ceeboo]

Hi Ceeboo!

I want you to know, I love your board contributions and I almost always agree with everything you say.

Dear and beloved fellow Never-Mormons

I have been asked (via a few PM's) to resurrect this thread for a particular purpose.

The purpose is to provide a place where Never-Mormons can offer their opinions/perspectives/thoughts/views about the recent LDS church policy change.

These views might deliver some uniqueness, as they will not be impacted, influenced, and or infected with and/or by a personal past experience of being an Ex-Mormon.

So.....If you are a Never-Mormon and you would like to share your thoughts about this - please feel free to do so.

Peace,
Ceeboo

My personal Never-Mormon thoughts:

The responsibility for this entire debacle rests at the feet of the LDS church - and only at the feet of the LDS church.

in my opinion - All of us (No matter what our personal beliefs happen to be) ought to be extremely cautious and extra careful that we do not direct our individual emotions (No matter what those emotions happen to be) at other individual human beings. No individual human being owns this one! More specifically - No individual Mormon owns this one.

What am I trying to say:

There are a ton of beautiful people on this planet that are Mormon. Boat-loads of these Mormons are good and decent people. A great majority of them are loving, compassionate, considerate, gentle, and kind. (This is true for any group of people in my opinion - I am using Mormons because that it the topic of this post)

This very group of people that I describe above are now facing, by absolutely no fault of their own, some very real and very impactful turbulence in their lives. If this isn't tough enough or uncomfortable enough, many of these folks are not flying alone. They are flying with their loved ones, on the same plane, experiencing the very same or similar turbulence.

My heart goes out to each and every person on that plane.

So - Do these passengers have a clear decision that they must make? Do they need to make any decision at all? Should we judge them based on a particular decision? Should we question their decision? Is making no decision wrong?

in my opinion - The answer to each and every question above is no!


Each and every Mormon will make an individual decision. Decisions like these are very very complex. They are deeply rooted in and around those they love. They are greatly impacted by their belief in their faith. They are very carefully measured by what each individual has at stake. They can be agonizing. And if an individual human being (who happens to be a Mormon) decides that they will not make any decisions - that is the decision they have chosen to make.

Don't we all do the exact same thing when we face difficult decisions?

I understand that and I support that.

The 2800 pound elephant in the room is not the Mormon people. It's not the Mormon family living in Nebraska. It's not the 28 year old single Mormon male that's in the choir. It's not the Mormon bishop who is helping a family right now in Hawaii. It's not the Mormon twin sisters in SLC that are helping feed the hungry. It's not the Mormon grandma who lives with her Mormon husband in Australia.

The 2800 pound elephant in the room is the LDS church.

They own this.

No Mormon, anywhere, should have to feel responsible for this. Because they aren't!

And lastly, no Mormon, anywhere, need to explain to me what they are - or what they are not - doing about this. That can most certainly be private - and that can most certainly remain private.

Peace,
Ceeboo

[_Ceeboo]

Oooops - dup!

[_RockSlider]

just wondering what you nevermo's have up your sleeve over here ...

They say curiosity killed the cat, so I best scoot out of here .... by the way, how the heck did that cat die anyway?

[_Jersey Girl]

Ceeboo,

It's been a long day for me. I plan to contribute more to this thread tomorrow as I have time. I said years ago that the only thing that could really change the LDS church would a grass roots uprising, and I wonder if that isn't what's happening right now. It's hard to gauge the impact, but I'm seeing comments about this all over the Internet as I read each day. I see so many TBM's speaking out against the policies (on boards, Facebook and in the comments section of articles) concerning SS parents and their children.

I've never seen anything like this in all the years I've been online.

I cannot fully express how disturbed I am by all of this. I feel just like Quasi does. I wish I had a membership that I could resign from. I wish I had the power to DO something that would help, but the only thing I can think of is to offer support and encouragement and simply say what I think about all of this.

I have more thoughts/ideas that I'd like to share tomorrow. Just need time to sleep on it and pull my thoughts together.

I don't think I'll get this out of my gut any time soon. I can tell you that much.

[_Paloma]

My first impression upon reading the new policy was that of a door slamming shut ... of coldness, harshness and finality.

I have been perusing Mormon sites for about fifteen years, taking a more personal interest in Mormonism in particular after having a passing interest in many different religions. The study of religion has been objectively fascinating for me over the years but Mormonism became personal after I acquired extended family that are LDS, and after I became close friends with an ex-Mormon couple, and especially after I entered into a friendly supportive role with a few LDS missionaries that were going through extremely difficult times during their missions, and whose friendship I value to this day.

My goal has been to learn more about Mormonism and to have respectful dialogue whenever I engage in conversations. I've been more of a listener and watcher than a participant. Along the way, I've seen all kinds of Mormons, many of whom I like and respect ... and others that are just really hard to stomach. There are some very faithful Mormons on MDDB that I love because their compassion, thoughtfulness and respect for others shine through their devotion. And I see Christ in them. There are many exmos and atheists that I love reading and am more drawn to than most of the "'religious" folk, though I am a Christian believer myself.

And I've been interested to see the different trends in the Mormon world ... apparent times of spring flowering and growing tolerance and inclusiveness and the more recent hardening stances ... and now this big SLAM ... involving children and families, no less!!!

Back to the policy on excluding the children of same sex parents from baby naming and blessing ordinances, and from baptism and other ordinances, and then requiring them to not live at home and to denounce the gay lifestyle if they hope to be baptized when they reach the age of 18:

I cringe that this is presented as an absolute edict. (I find the policy itself damaging and horrible ... but it was the finality of it that first struck me.)

To me, church is about people ... about loving people... about God's love for people and our call to love and prioritize and protect each other, especially the most vulnerable among us.

Life is messy. People are messy. We are messy. And so I believe the church should look more messy and outrageous than contained and ... heaven forbid! harsh and judgmental and condemning. Heaven forbid that we put roadblocks in people's way and that we bar people's access to God Himself.

The Father in the parable of the prodigal son was outrageous, no-holds-barred in His love, acceptance and warm embrace of his wayward son ... and the self-righteous, pharisaical elder brother was not right in his judgmental effort to stop the inclusive family reunion.

Within the paradigm of the Mormon church, it seems to me that this new policy gives no opportunity for the children of same sex parents to be included, feel loved and prioritized, and progress in their relationship with God. (My own church paradigm is very different, but that's not the issue here.)

I think that's terribly sad and tragic.

i've been very touched by the stories I've read here ... and I see that as a good, very human and bonding experience that's come out of this.

Out of this, I see the strength, humanity and compassion of people .. and lack of these qualities in the church itself that comes across as implacable and uncaring and very, very lacking in tenderness and humanity, and in a willingness to grapple with real life people and real life issues.

God's heart is tender. I think part of the reason the religious leaders despised and rejected Jesus was because he came across as ambiguous and outrageous, and couldn't be pinned down ... and of course, he was with THEM and not with pristine US.

I could go on and on. I have very close friends who are gay and lesbians and transgendered. I have agonized and cried with some of them, and celebrated with others.

I don't have answers, but I pray that I will always have LOVE ... outrageous, unconditional love.

Another thought I've had in all of this is that the sins Jesus hated and highlighted were not sins of the flesh, but of the heart ... pride, derision, judgmentalism, self-righteousness, etc.

[_Ceeboo]

Hi Paloma!

My first impression upon reading the new policy was that of a door slamming shut ... of coldness, harshness and finality.

I have been perusing Mormon sites for about fifteen years, taking a more personal interest in Mormonism in particular after having a passing interest in many different religions. The study of religion has been objectively fascinating for me over the years but Mormonism became personal after I acquired extended family that are LDS, and after I became close friends with an ex-Mormon couple, and especially after I entered into a friendly supportive role with a few LDS missionaries that were going through extremely difficult times during their missions, and whose friendship I value to this day.

My goal has been to learn more about Mormonism and to have respectful dialogue whenever I engage in conversations. I've been more of a listener and watcher than a participant. Along the way, I've seen all kinds of Mormons, many of whom I like and respect ... and others that are just really hard to stomach. There are some very faithful Mormons on MDDB that I love because their compassion, thoughtfulness and respect for others shine through their devotion. And I see Christ in them. There are many exmos and atheists that I love reading and am more drawn to than most of the "'religious" folk, though I am a Christian believer myself.

And I've been interested to see the different trends in the Mormon world ... apparent times of spring flowering and growing tolerance and inclusiveness and the more recent hardening stances ... and now this big SLAM ... involving children and families, no less!!!

Back to the policy on excluding the children of same sex parents from baby naming and blessing ordinances, and from baptism and other ordinances, and then requiring them to not live at home and to denounce the gay lifestyle if they hope to be baptized when they reach the age of 18:

I cringe that this is presented as an absolute edict. (I find the policy itself damaging and horrible ... but it was the finality of it that first struck me.)

To me, church is about people ... about loving people... about God's love for people and our call to love and prioritize and protect each other, especially the most vulnerable among us.

Life is messy. People are messy. We are messy. And so I believe the church should look more messy and outrageous than contained and ... heaven forbid! harsh and judgmental and condemning. Heaven forbid that we put roadblocks in people's way and that we bar people's access to God Himself.

The Father in the parable of the prodigal son was outrageous, no-holds-barred in His love, acceptance and warm embrace of his wayward son ... and the self-righteous, pharisaical elder brother was not right in his judgmental effort to stop the inclusive family reunion.

Within the paradigm of the Mormon church, it seems to me that this new policy gives no opportunity for the children of same sex parents to be included, feel loved and prioritized, and progress in their relationship with God. (My own church paradigm is very different, but that's not the issue here.)

I think that's terribly sad and tragic.

i've been very touched by the stories I've read here ... and I see that as a good, very human and bonding experience that's come out of this.

Out of this, I see the strength, humanity and compassion of people .. and lack of these qualities in the church itself that comes across as implacable and uncaring and very, very lacking in tenderness and humanity, and in a willingness to grapple with real life people and real life issues.

God's heart is tender. I think part of the reason the religious leaders despised and rejected Jesus was because he came across as ambiguous and outrageous, and couldn't be pinned down ... and of course, he was with THEM and not with pristine US.

I could go on and on. I have very close friends who are gay and lesbians and transgendered. I have agonized and cried with some of them, and celebrated with others.

I don't have answers, but I pray that I will always have LOVE ... outrageous, unconditional love.

Another thought I've had in all of this is that the sins Jesus hated and highlighted were not sins of the flesh, but of the heart ... pride, derision, judgmentalism, self-righteousness, etc.

Thanks, friend!

A very thought provoking contribution.

(And, I won't tell anyone, but your "light" was shinning all over that post!)

Peace,
Ceeboo

[_Paloma]

Thanks, friend!

A very thought provoking contribution.

(And, I won't tell anyone, but your "light" was shinning all over that post!)

Peace,
Ceeboo

Thanks, Ceeboo, my friend and partner in peace!