Say what you will about Bernie Sanders

[Guest]

So you agree then that we should look at how much they contribute to the economy and how much they may cost. Keep in mind without them you have lost business for US companies who are trying to export product outside the US. This is the best source of money into a countries economy.

Yes, that's why I'm not racist or xenophobic. I'm merely proAmerican in that I put other Americans first. You could accuse me of nationalism but not racism.

While I see the pro-American, I also see the racism. Why else make some comments about Republicans getting more white votes but unable to win in another thread.

[_EAllusion]

[
Why I see the pro-American, I also see the racism. Why else make some comments about Republicans getting more white votes but unable to win in another thread.

When you are lamenting that minorities are making up a larger and larger % of voters because that means that the country is going to hell in a handbasket and will soon be a banana Republic, that is racist as all get out.

[_cinepro]

So you think. And some may say that only because they've never done it before and think it isn't so hard. Or maybe they'd do it for a few days just to prove a point. But I doubt you know any Americans who would commit through an entire season of it. John McCain famously said he'd pay someone $50/hr to pick lettuce in Yuma Arizona, and couldn't get any takers.

McCain's "offer" was obviously a rhetorical device. $50/hr is $2,000 a week. I know 10 people who would hop in their cars today if they could get a job picking lettuce for an entire season at $50/hr.

But if that's the line of thinking that is acceptable, then it works for the tech workers who were replaced with foreign workers. "Americans just don't want those jobs. I'll pay anybody here with a CS degree $25/hr to go and work in IT for Disney. Any takers?" No? Well it looks like we need foreign workers then.

[_ajax18]

McCain's "offer" was obviously a rhetorical device. $50/hr is $2,000 a week. I know 10 people who would hop in their cars today if they could get a job picking lettuce for an entire season at $50/hr.

But if that's the line of thinking that is acceptable, then it works for the tech workers who were replaced with foreign workers. "Americans just don't want those jobs. I'll pay anybody here with a CS degree $25/hr to go and work in IT for Disney. Any takers?" No? Well it looks like we need foreign workers then.

+1000

I love when you really nail a point like this. It makes for good reading.

[_Kevin Graham]

McCain's "offer" was obviously a rhetorical device. $50/hr is $2,000 a week.

No, he was dead serious and you seem to miss the point. It isn't that Americans wouldn't do it, but rather they couldn't. I'm sure you know plenty of people who'd say they'd try to climb Mt. Everest as well. Saying it and doing it are two different things. The point being, it simply isn't worth killing themselves even for that kind of money.

I know 10 people who would hop in their cars today if they could get a job picking lettuce for an entire season at $50/hr.

I'm sure you think you do. I doubt you know anyone who'd last a week. Just ask this guy.

But if workers were paid $50/hr to pick lettuce this would drive down the demand for lettuce because it would be too expensive. It's lettuce for crying out loud, not caviar. Even if they were to pay your friends their $18/hr minimum, that would still be enough to more than double the price of lettuce. And who loses in the end? We all do.

But if that's the line of thinking that is acceptable, then it works for the tech workers who were replaced with foreign workers.

Well, now you just shifted to the H-1B visa program, which, as far as I'm concerned, go ahead and get rid of it entirely.

"Americans just don't want those jobs. I'll pay anybody here with a CS degree $25/hr to go and work in IT for Disney. Any takers?" No? Well it looks like we need foreign workers then.

But again, who is to blame for this? The hyper-capitalists running corporate America, that's who. This has nothing to do with illegal immigration because they come here legally.

But let's be completely fair here. IT represents the bulk of H1B jobs. Earning $25/hr is only about $50,000/year but the reality is H1B jobs in this industry average far more than that. In fact, since you brought it up, Disney is now hiring H1B programmers at $52/hr which is an annual salary of $107,328; the average salary is $124,016 for H1B workers. Here is a list of other IT related jobs at Disney with salaries well over $100k. These aren't poverty wages we're talking about. The most despicable thing about the H1B program is the way in which corporate sponsors are permitted to control the guest workers in ways that border slavery.

But I guess your point is that Americans would much rather be unemployed than accept $52/hr? There aren't a lot of unemployed folks in IT unless they are just too old and don't want to keep up with what's new. The demand for IT work is simply too high. Higher than any other industry from what I understand. Any programmer worth his salt can make a killing freelancing his services, as I know a few of them who do.

[_Kevin Graham]

I love when you really nail a point like this. It makes for good reading.

I'm sure you feel the same way about Brietbart.

[_EAllusion]

So, if you believe that no Americans will pick lettuce for $50 an hour, why do you believe that immigrants will do this work? You hinted at one reason - they don't value their lives as much as Americans do. Is that what you're going with? Are you saying that America needs a constant flux of cheap immigrants who don't value their lives to a degree nearly unheard of in America and thus will submit to degrading, life-stealing work no American will? If so, how do you square this with the fact that Americans do work in dangerous, harmful jobs for premium salaries all the time?

Gee, I just thought cost of living differences from the immigrant experience makes them more willing to work for less for comparable work.

[_Themis]

So, if you believe that no Americans will pick lettuce for $50 an hour, why do you believe that immigrants will do this work? You hinted at one reason - they don't value their lives as much as Americans do. Is that what you're going with? Are you saying that America needs a constant flux of cheap immigrants who don't value their lives to a degree nearly unheard of in America and thus will submit to degrading, life-stealing work no American will? If so, how do you square this with the fact that Americans do work in dangerous, harmful jobs for premium salaries all the time?

Gee, I just thought cost of living differences from the immigrant experience makes them more willing to work for less for comparable work.

$50 an hour is way above what most people make in the US. While many would still not do a job that may be hard with long hours, there would be many Americans who would eagerly do it who have good bodies capable of doing the work. The problem is that who would buy this lettuce? How much of the Lettuce that gets exported internationally would no longer be bought from the US in favor of another country with much lower wages? How much lost money going to another economy instead of the US economy. That means lost jobs and lost revenue for companies in the US. It shouldn't be hard to see how low income workers from Latin America provide more for the US economy then they take away. Hell, in the next few decades they might have all the machines that are even cheaper then low wage workers to take all the jobs. Then the elite have to figure out what to do with the rest of us.

[_ajax18]

It shouldn't be hard to see how low income workers from Latin America provide more for the US economy then they take away.

Would you say that sweatshops in third world countries provide more for the US economy than they take away? These people aren't even getting social welfare to supplement their wages. It certainly provides much cheaper products than would be available if the products were made in the USA.

In my experience a lot of these farmers were paying their illegal immigrants under the table to avoid federal and state income taxation as well. I'm not convinced that the government is taking in much money in the form of taxes. I know they still pay sales taxes, but how much are sales taxes really compared to income taxes? But I am convinced that they're providing a cheaper product of equal or even better quality.

[_Themis]

It shouldn't be hard to see how low income workers from Latin America provide more for the US economy then they take away.

Would you say that sweatshops in third world countries provide more for the US economy than they take away?

What does that have to do with a business in the US who employs low income workers in the US?

In my experience a lot of these farmers were paying their illegal immigrants under the table to avoid federal and state income taxation as well. I'm not convinced that the government is taking in much money in the form of taxes. I know they still pay sales taxes, but how much are sales taxes really compared to income taxes? But I am convinced that they're providing a cheaper product of equal or even better quality.

I didn't say anything about illegal workers. I said low income workers. Many countries bring in low income workers, and even skilled workers, to do jobs that don'e have enough people to do them. This has been going on in the US since it has been the US.