Yet another tweet from President: Charlie Gard

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_Chap
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Re: Yet another tweet from President: Charlie Gard

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subgenius wrote:
Chap wrote:That is what the courts are for - and I am glad they do that job, since, sadly, there are times when the desperate optimism of parents may end up doing the child more harm than good. .

Guaranteed death or possible cure.....the former being your definition of "better", the latter being "more harm" - Got it!

So what you are really saying is that the courts were merely adjudicating optimism.....Parents being denied "2nd opinion" or exercising their right to seek other treatments is something you are "glad" occurs via writ....great job!

At what point do you suppose the Doctors of Great Ormond have the authority to raise such a dispute? I mean is this not tantamount to the doctors accusing the parents of neglect or abuse? surely such dangerous parents should be brought up on charges by your reasoning, yes?


The question is, does anyone but the parents have any right to set limits on the suffering inflicted on a child in the hope that there may be some amelioration in the child's condition?

I do not think any civilised country could tolerate a state of affairs in which no limits were set on parental discretion in that regard. Thus, for instance, suppose parents were to be persuaded that the application of red-hot irons to their child's skin might, just might, improve the child's health (that once was an approved medical therapy, by the way). Clearly any reasonable person would expect the law to intervene at that point, and say to the parents

'No. We understand that you think you are doing the best you can for your child. But we must and shall over-ride your discretion and say enough is enough. Better your child should die in peace than that it should suffer so much in the distant hope of a cure.'

If anyone thinks that in such a case the parents should be allowed to continue the branding treatment, I have nothing to say to them.

But to the 99.99% who would agree that in such a case the law should be allowed to intervene and over-ride the parents, I would point out that you have conceded the essential principle. The law must at times intervene to protect a child from the consequences of a mistaken judgement by parents. A child is not its parents' property, to do with as they will, but a human being with rights. And sometimes one of those rights may be the right to be left to die in peace rather than to be made to suffer in a hopeless quest.

The courts are currently reviewing the case of the child referred to in the OP, to see if there is further evidence that might change the original decision. I have no idea how they will decide. I have no wish for the decision to go one way or another. I just want it to be made on a cool and rational estimate of the balance of prolonged pain versus possible amelioration of the child's condition.

(I would however be delighted if it suddenly turned out that a miracle cure was available that would rescue this child from its apparently certain fate and its parents from their grief. But that seems very, very unlikely as things currently stand).
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Yet another tweet from President: Charlie Gard

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The CCC wrote:At the same time Republicans want to drop 32 million American's from health care coverage against their and their family's interest. They have deliberately turned this into a international Terri Schaivo melodrama for American politics. Drumpf doesn't give a Rat's Behind about this sad little boys life.


You know I just read a thing and you're perfectly right about the 32m figure and by 2026. I'm not sure where I got 22 from, though it could have been those impacted by Medicaid cuts. In any case, you were right.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
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_Jersey Girl
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Re: Yet another tweet from President: Charlie Gard

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Chap wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:Would you mind terribly addressing the premise that was proposed to you in the above? If it's not too much of a burden to you, of course.


Nope. Have fun discussing your what-ifs by yourself, if you want to. I'll stick to the real case referred to in the OP.


You mean like this?

I do not think any civilised country could tolerate a state of affairs in which no limits were set on parental discretion in that regard. Thus, for instance, suppose parents were to be persuaded that the application of red-hot irons to their child's skin might, just might, improve the child's health (that once was an approved medical therapy, by the way). Clearly any reasonable person would expect the law to intervene at that point, and say to the parents


Okay, let's go with your chosen style of "what if".

In the case of Charlie Gard, the court assumed custody. What would happen, for instance, if the child were Prince George or one of the Beckham children and their parents were to be persuaded that the experimental treatment were the best choice for their child?

Would the court system have taken custody of their children?
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
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_Jersey Girl
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Re: Yet another tweet from President: Charlie Gard

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Just for the record, I love that you declined to engage in what if's and then based your very next post on a what if scenario, Chap. It is to laugh!

:lol:
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_Chap
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Re: Yet another tweet from President: Charlie Gard

Post by _Chap »

Jersey Girl wrote:Just for the record, I love that you declined to engage in what if's and then based your very next post on a what if scenario ...


Nope. The cases are quite different.

(a) Your 'what-if'"
What would happen if <insert stuff like 'if it turned out that the there was a dispute between doctors and rich and influential parents about a sick child's treatment'>?
The question demands that the responder should be able to predict what other people will do in a hypothetical case, and is asked purely and only so that the questioner can respond to whatever answer is given by saying 'Well, I can tell you for sure! No court would ever intervene!', or whatever. It's just a kind of harrumphing before you say what you were going to say anyway. I'm not interested in being a feed for your punchline.

(b) My 'what-if'
What do you think ought to be done in the case that <insert example of parent inflicting pointless and painful treatment on a child>? Anybody who has a point of view on the rights of parents should be able to answer that question, which is directed towards ascertaining whether the responder actually believes that parents have rights over their child that should be completely unlimited by law. If they do, I have no more to say. But if they don't, we can then proceed to discuss what those limitations might be, a discussion in which different points of view may legitimately be expressed.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Yet another tweet from President: Charlie Gard

Post by _Jersey Girl »

There's no punchline to feed. What there is a question posed that remains unanswered by you. I take it that intellectual honesty isn't of interest to you either.
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_The CCC
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Re: Yet another tweet from President: Charlie Gard

Post by _The CCC »

Jersey Girl wrote:
You know I just read a thing and you're perfectly right about the 32m figure and by 2026. I'm not sure where I got 22 from, though it could have been those impacted by Medicaid cuts. In any case, you were right.


Probably from the CBO score on the proposed Senate Bill with repeal and replace. The House Bill would have drop 24 million from coverage. With Republicans now pushing repeal alone the number jumps to 32 million. Depending on how the final Bill is written it could also effect the 100's of millions of American's who get their insurance through their work.
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Yet another tweet from President: Charlie Gard

Post by _Jersey Girl »

The CCC wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:
You know I just read a thing and you're perfectly right about the 32m figure and by 2026. I'm not sure where I got 22 from, though it could have been those impacted by Medicaid cuts. In any case, you were right.


Probably from the CBO score on the proposed Senate Bill with repeal and replace. The House Bill would have drop 24 million from coverage. With Republicans now pushing repeal alone the number jumps to 32 million. Depending on how the final Bill is written it could also effect the 100's of millions of American's who get their insurance through their work.


I can't say for sure. I just wanted to acknowledge that you were right.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
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_The CCC
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Re: Yet another tweet from President: Charlie Gard

Post by _The CCC »

Thank you.
_Chap
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Re: Yet another tweet from President: Charlie Gard

Post by _Chap »

Jersey Girl wrote:There's no punchline to feed. What there is a question posed that remains unanswered by you. I take it that intellectual honesty isn't of interest to you either.


Nope. It's just that I have no interest in playing games with you by imagining what might happen under extremely unlikely circumstances, when you have already clearly made up your mind on what would happen, and there is no way of deciding who has the right answer. As I said:

a) Your 'what-if'"
What would happen if <insert stuff like 'if it turned out that the there was a dispute between doctors and rich and influential parents about a sick child's treatment'>?
The question demands that the responder should be able to predict what other people will do in a hypothetical case, and is asked purely and only so that the questioner can respond to whatever answer is given by saying 'Well, I can tell you for sure! No court would ever intervene!', or whatever. It's just a kind of harrumphing before you say what you were going to say anyway. I'm not interested in being a feed for your punchline.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
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