SteelHead wrote:I don't understand how a Rand Objectivist can be a christian or how a christian can claim to follow the teachings of Rand. The GOP is a hot mess.
Well said, Steelhead! It boggles my mind that subgenius, who claims to be a devout Mormon and Christian, can possibly fail to see that!
My emphasis. I really did not know (or had forgotten) that.
I am not exactly a fan of the CoJCoLDS, but I have to say that I have never so far met any other self-identifying Mormon so enthusiastically and whole-heartedly devoted to being unpleasant to and about others in as many ways as possible.
(Well, at least he has a soft spot for water-colours).
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Christians sometimes dabble in ethical egoism when trying to stick it to atheists.
It's popular to argue that atheists lack the moral motivation of theists like Christians because of their lack of belief in an afterlife. How come? Because if the universe doesn't ultimately reward the virtuous and punish the wicked, then the atheist has no motive to be virtuous. If you can choose the wrong and be ultimately better off for it, why not do that? Ergo, atheists lack moral motivation.
This argument presumes ethical egoism. It only makes sense if doing the right thing is self-same with doing the thing that best aligns with self-interest. Once you accept that it is possible for moral behavior to diverge from self-interest, the entire argument collapses.
Because selfishness is a vice rather than a virtue.
What if that selfishness is not practiced at the expense of others?
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"
Because selfishness is a vice rather than a virtue.
if we ignore the obvious redundancy in your response (eg a vice is "wrong" by the actual definition) - one must ask, how is selfishness being qualified, by you, as a "vice" ?
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
EAllusion wrote:Christians sometimes dabble in ethical egoism when trying to stick it to atheists.
It's popular to argue that atheists lack the moral motivation of theists like Christians because of their lack of belief in an afterlife. How come? Because if the universe doesn't ultimately reward the virtuous and punish the wicked, then the atheist has no motive to be virtuous. If you can choose the wrong and be ultimately better off for it, why not do that? Ergo, atheists lack moral motivation.
This argument presumes ethical egoism. It only makes sense if doing the right thing is self-same with doing the thing that best aligns with self-interest. Once you accept that it is possible for moral behavior to diverge from self-interest, the entire argument collapses.
yeah, but you can not prove that moral behavior is able to diverge from an atheist's self-interest because nothing exists (nor can exist) beyond the atheist's self.
I don't think "moral motivation" is the issue raised against atheists - it is more accurate to raise the issue for how an atheist has no foundation for the existence of a "morality" other than from a self-centered or selfish foundation. Ergo their morality is necessarily subjective and can eventually only be justified by "might". Thus accountability can essentially be dismissed and disputes are resolved by arbitrary and inherently unfair methods.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
subgenius wrote:- one must ask, how is selfishness being qualified, by you, as a "vice" ?
What - you don't think it is?
People have been saying that you are a follower of that 1st-century rabbi who gave people the commandment to 'love one another' (which seems to rule out being selfish). Aren't you?
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
subgenius wrote:- one must ask, how is selfishness being qualified, by you, as a "vice" ?
What - you don't think it is?
I was not aksing about what i think, i was simply asking the poster to justify their own claim given that the claim had no support, no foundation - and thus was an unconvincing claim.
Chap wrote:People have been saying that you are a follower of that 1st-century rabbi who gave people the commandment to 'love one another' (which seems to rule out being selfish). Aren't you?
irrelevant issue at the moment - but - it is arguable for how "love one another" relates to a concept of selfishness, and yet another argument to contend that selfishness is inherently a vice or a virtue.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
EAllusion wrote: I'm not a fan of Ayn Rand, but this piece at times confuses Ayn Rand's use of metaphor and failures as a writer with her actual positions.
Hers was a world of a few Uber-Capitalists makers and a vast majority of useless takers. That desired to die.
Ayn Rand was not consistent in her own actions. She claimed to be independent of morality and against others receiving governmental benefits they had not directly paid for. She smoked like a chimney. But when told she could not afford the medical care based on her own work. She applied for, and got, the money from her husband's Social Security Insurance account.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
sub wrote:it is more accurate to raise the issue for how an atheist has no foundation for the existence of a "morality" other than from a self-centered or selfish foundation.
no more than it is for a theist to have foundation for morality outside a self-centered selfish foundation. There is precisely only one grounding for morals out of several options that an atheist can't have but a theist can: if what is "good" is good because God says it's good.
The typical impulse for believers such as sub confuses "foundation" with "motivation". EA just explained why, and how in a bizarre twist some christians own selfishness as their god is uniquely positioned to reward with candy forever.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.
LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.